KLZE confusion, trying to sort rumor from reality...

[wytbishop]

I understand what MrMazda is trying to do. There is a lot of misinformation.

When I look back in my memory in years past I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that the 2.5L Millenia KL was on equal footing with the JDM ZE. I always knew that it had lower compression and the KL-01 cams and if my memory serves the rumor was about 10 less hp.

The really funny one to me was that people had to have a Straight neck engine with a Milli Curved IM on it, rather than buying a Curved neck engine from the importer...because the Curved neck engines from Japan came out of automatic cars so the tourque curve was shallower. Whatever.

I just always mocked people for caring. I only chose to install the straightneck because it's more challenging and less common.

[Josh]

Nicely said^^^

I thought it was just common knowledge. Comp and cams are the first place I looked when researching comparisons.

[MrMazda92]

Spend more money to import it, and when they importer screws you, don't let me catch you b----ing about it. I'll put a quote of you whining into my signature.

A .8 bump in static CR, KL31 cams, and an EGR delete net you 30 BHP.
So those running 11.5:1 CR, with Colt Cams should be in the 300 BHP range, right?

A J-spec MX6 produces 200 BHP at the crank. If you put the same engine into an A-spec Millenia, without changing anything else, you would not see 200 BHP at the crank. Who, out of the very few who know what the hell they are talking about, would like to explain why?

Thank you wytbishop, fowljesse, Nd4SpdSe, and Sleeper6 for actually reading my words before replying, and for contributing useful, factual information.

[MrMazda92]

I just always mocked people for caring. I only chose to install the straightneck because it's more challenging and less common.

I give you props for that Charlie... I loved the relative ease with which you could modify the plenum of the straightneck, by opening up the VRIS cover and removing the butterfly. That, and the more even distribution of flow that the plenum allows, give it vast potential for improvement over factory. That is the manifold I plan to use for my performance KL build.

[Josh]

I just always mocked people for caring. I only chose to install the straightneck because it's more challenging and less common.

I give you props for that Charlie... I loved the relative ease with which you could modify the plenum of the straightneck, by opening up the VRIS cover and removing the butterfly. That, and the more even distribution of flow that the plenum allows, give it vast potential for improvement over factory. That is the manifold I plan to use for my performance KL build.

I would just go with the KLg4 mani and not have to worry about modding your master cylinder.

A J-spec MX6 produces 200 BHP at the crank. If you put the same engine into an A-spec Millenia, without changing anything else, you would not see 200 BHP at the crank. Who, out of the very few who know what the hell they are talking about, would like to explain why?

What what what? whomever said this is right. If you take a J-spec straight neck ZE that has 200 crank HP (which none of them were BTW, they all were 198 crank HP) and drop it straight into an A-spec Milly it will be less. You know why!? You have to change the ECU, DE tuning is my #1 grip with those doing the swap and then complaining about the lack there of in a hp gain. So whoever said this is right to some level. I gained 10 WHP off of changing only the ECU.

And you have to keep in mind Blake, higher compression, larger cams, and emission deletes will make that much difference. Especially when Mazda had specific tuned fuel systems for both. Remember the JDM motor had limited to no emissions at all and ran 96 octane, so naturally the numbers will be higher. I have found guys with DE's dynoing at 180+ with MS and bolt on's. Tuning has a lot to do with it, it is not solely the high comp, cams, and intakes.

[Nd4SpdSe]

The SkyActiv 2.0L in Japan is 14:1 and uses 91 octane and makes 163hp/155tq
The SkyActiv 2.0L in North America is 13:1, runs on 87 Octane and makes 155hp/148tq

And that's on a non-performance 4cyl...

Although the ZE didn't have headers, they do talk about performance and emissions with their SkyActiv 4-2-1 headers and how hard it's to get a balance between. Exhaust system does make a difference

[MrMazda92]

I would just go with the KLg4 mani and not have to worry about modding your master cylinder.

I won't be modifying the master cylinder, that is only one of a few possible methods to make it work. That is the cleanest though, without a doubt! My solution works just as well, but it wouldn't work for most people.

A J-spec MX6 produces 200 BHP at the crank. If you put the same engine into an A-spec Millenia, without changing anything else, you would not see 200 BHP at the crank. Who, out of the very few who know what the hell they are talking about, would like to explain why?

What what what? whomever said this is right. If you take a J-spec straight neck ZE that has 200 crank HP (which none of them were BTW, they all were 198 crank HP) and drop it straight into an A-spec Milly it will be less. You know why!? You have to change the ECU, DE tuning is my #1 grip with those doing the swap and then complaining about the lack there of in a hp gain. So whoever said this is right to some level. I gained 10 WHP off of changing only the ECU.

DING DING DING!!!!! WE HAVE A WINNER. This is what I have been trying to get at all along, the power isn't all magically produced by cams and a TINY bump in static CR. The engine produced 200(well, 198, whatever) BHP in the J-spec MX-6! That does not mean swapping that engine into an MX-3 will magically grant you 200(198, as that may be the case) BHP! I want people to get this SIMPLE IDEA into their thick skulls!

And you have to keep in mind Blake, higher compression, larger cams, and emission deletes will make that much difference. Especially when Mazda had specific tuned fuel systems for both. Remember the JDM motor had limited to no emissions at all and ran 96 octane, so naturally the numbers will be higher. I have found guys with DE's dynoing at 180+ with MS and bolt on's. Tuning has a lot to do with it, it is not solely the high comp, cams, and intakes.

I know that Josh, ALL of those factors TOGETHER very realistically explain a 30 BHP difference between the two SETUPS, NOT JUST THE ENGINES.

Stuffing a Millenia KL into an otherwise BONE STOCK J-spec MX-6 would produce more than 170 BHP, and less than 200(198) BHP.

The idea I want people to understand is so simple, that I can't believe I have to repeat it over and over again. It's the most frustrating thing I have ever encountered on this forum, bar none!

Replacing your 2.5l V6 with a "Real KLZE" will not magically make your car dyno 200(198, whatever) BHP.

Replacing your engine, upgrading your intake, exhaust, and emissions(including TUNING) CAN VERY WELL PUT YOU IN THE 200 BHP RANGE.

Are we all on the same page, FINALLY?

[crazycanadian]

Looks like this thread is going around in circles to me... Compressions/Tune/Cams are the 3 most important factors when it comes to the difference in hp... Intake manifolds has a small part to play, but mainly affect torque curve...

Deleting your EGR valve and EVAP stuff does NOTHING for power gains.. The PCM turns both your EGR valve and EVAP off, when you get to certain throttle percent or RPM range... If you don't believe me, bring your car over.. I'll hook up my test equipment and take you for a drive and prove it to you..

This whole thread is complicating the issue far to much... You can build a ZE from a millenia motors with sqaure intake ports... Flat top pistons/Cams and tune the b----... You are done...

[wytbishop]

I would also like to point out...becasue as far as I've read in this thread it hasn't been...the difference between HP rating and a WHP recorded on a dyno.

The published values for these engines are ratings roughly equivalient to the numbers you'd see on an engine dyno. Typical chassis dyno numbers for a ZE in an MX-3 using a K801 ECU with a Probinator chip would be in the 165-175hp range. This to me is reasonably in line with the driveline losses you'd expect from a motor with a hp rating of 198. 10-15% loss. I don't think anyone who knows anything about how an engine, or a dyno works expects to see a 190+ dyno run from their newly installed ZE.

I recall one member a few years back who showed dyno readout of 188hp. That's far and away the best I've seen.

It is also worth noting, although it's not really significant to this conversation that two dyno's of exactly the same make and model will produce different results on the same car in the same conditions on the same day. A dyno is a tuning tool, not a universal rating tool.

[MrMazda92]

Looks like this thread is going around in circles to me... Compressions/Tune/Cams are the 3 most important factors when it comes to the difference in hp... Intake manifolds has a small part to play, but mainly affect torque curve...

Deleting your EGR valve and EVAP stuff does NOTHING for power gains.. The PCM turns both your EGR valve and EVAP off, when you get to certain throttle percent or RPM range... If you don't believe me, bring your car over.. I'll hook up my test equipment and take you for a drive and prove it to you..

This whole thread is complicating the issue far to much... You can build a ZE from a millenia motors with sqaure intake ports... Flat top pistons/Cams and tune the b----... You are done...

I wanted one thing to come out of this thread.

People need to understand that swapping a "True KLZE" - Defined as the various hunks of metal between the throttle body and the oilpan drain plug into an MX-3 will not give them 30 more horsepower than a Millenia KL.

With all other factors being equal, and yes, for the vast majority of us swapping engines, THEY ARE EQUAL. The engines will produce damn near the same amount of power. People use a Millenia ECU and a K8 VAF with a "True KLZE", and they're making maybe 10 more HP than they would with the same combo on a Millenia engine.

They would make more power swapping a Millenia engine and a KL31/KL36/Chipped ECU, and save money in the process.

Refer to Josh's earlier quote of 10 WHP, which as I recall he proved on a dyno, just from swapping to the J-spec ECU.

[RX8SE3P]

A completely correct ECU/VAF exhaust etc setup that is completely and 100% correct for the engine in question will result in the KL31 cammed engine beating the millenia.

I don't know about this magic 200HP claim though, it's optimistic at best and I never believed it.

But simple fact of the matter, I don't agree with people claiming the non J-spec engine IS a ZE when it clearly has lower compression pistons (yes lower compression for non jspec engines so the engine runs on s--- domestic fuel) and has KL01 cams instead of KL31...

Might not be a 30HP difference but it's not a true KL31 engine. It's a domestic Millenia engine. IF you have a Jspec millenia and the ONLY difference is cams, then yes, HP will be closer, much closer.

[wytbishop]

They would make more power swapping a Millenia engine and a KL31/KL36/Chipped ECU, and save money in the process.

I catagorically disagree with that statement.

The North American Millenia 2.5L V6 is a KL-DE. Unless someone has evidence to the contrary, I believe it has the same piston and resulting compression ratio, as well as the same KL-01 cam as a North American Probe/MX-6/626. It has square intake ports and bigger injectors but as far as I know it is still rated to make 170hp. In an MX-3 with K8 injectors, a chipped ECU and JE-50 VAF and 2.25" or 2.5" exhaust with a standard EBAY header it would pull 145-150 on a chassis dyno. Same ballpark as any stock Probe/MX-6/626 DE you dropped in. It's a DE.

My Straight Neck JDM ZE with higher compression and KL-31 cam, chipped K801 ECU (Probinator claims he copied the KL31 map and "tweeked" it but that's another question), same VAF, same exhaust would pull 170-175. Countless members have done so. That's just fact.

Why would Probe/MX-6/626 guys have been swapping their DE's out for JDM engines all these years? If the Millenia engine was mechanically the same as the JDM ZE, straight, curved or otherwise, they would have been buying them up over here for a dozen years now. You would not have been able to find a Millenia with a 2.5L engine in it anywhere for a decade by now.

[Josh]

Blake - if you have a Milly and drop a J-spec ZE in it will still net you an increase. Just as if you were to install high comp pistons and KL31 cams into your milly motor, you would still see an increase. Not 30hp and this is crank HP mind you but probably somewhere in the 15-20 crank hp range.

Tuning is everything. These are arguments I used to get into back in the day. Just instead with my Turbo B6DE. That and I remember guy after guy installing ZE's into their MX's being disappointed at the gains. My car Whisper had a probinator chipped K8 ECU and it dyno'd at like 157 to the wheels or something. he then installed a 95' DE ecu/vaf and saw an increase to 161 and kept it. Soon I will have my piggyback and will pull some great numbers out of it. 175-180 is within the realm of expectations.

Wytbishop - I agree.

The A-spec milly is a DE with KL31 heads and kl01 cams. From what I remember reading somewhere is that Mazda had a surplus of parts and they put them to use. Gains were minimal over the MX6/626/probe guys with oval ported heads.

This entire thread is all over the place. Screw it I am just going to throw in the KJ... that's 230 at the crank... you know I am just going to swap 13b rotors into my KL and then we will see who is laughing...

[fowljesse]

I feel that, since we're talking about swapping things around, a stand alone EMS should be part of the equation. Why not get the best out of whatever you put together? Then, the hardware can speak for itself, and this thread will stop going in circles. Just recently, there is a plug and play MegaSquirt, so anyone who can perform the swap can now run it. All of the upgrades will actually produce what they're supposed to, as will the engines themselves. Also, one can build one like mine, with parts from many different cars, Martini shakers, whatever, and tune it to get the max out of it. One can even tune more power than the proper ECU would produce.
All of the arguments about VAFs/ ECUs, etc.. are now inconsequential. It's not cheap, but if one is going to argue about it, one should be interested in saving up to do it right.
Also, this reminds me of when I raced Mountain bikes semi-pro. I spent a lot of money and time building, and rebuilding my bike, while guys that I raced kept pace with me. I thought I should have gotten faster. I finally asked one of my buddies about it. He basically said that, while I was doing what I was doing, he was getting seat time, gaining experience.
For me, it's all about the driving experience. There are PLENTY of idiots on Youtube, crashing their exotic cars, because they don't know how to handle them. This reminds me of living in Waikiki, watching the tourists hammer the transmissions of rental exotic cars. It was PAINFUL!
My point is; build what you can with what you can get, and drive the D---ed thing. I get more joy out of not having to slow down for corners than being able to do a straight line faster (which takes plenty of seat time, too, when you get to a certain level).

Back to the issue at hand. If one gets a stand alone EMS, then swaps the various engines, and dynos them in as close to the exact same conditions, on the same dyno, we would put this to rest. However, in my experience, it is fairly obvious which parts do what, and I have a pretty good idea of how different combinations work together. It comes down to what you want from the car. Even talking about easy(ish) swaps isn't so easy anymore, since you have to find a strong "true" ZE that you don't have to rebuild. I wonder if they even exist anymore. If you find one, and put in MegaSquirt, that's about as simple as one can do it.

[MrMazda92]

I don't even feel like reading this anymore...

If the Millenia engine is a KL-DE, so is the KL-G4.

So is the KJ for that matter, since it wasn't marketed in a Japanese MX-6. They're all KL-DEs. You win.

Oh, and since KL-DEs are determined solely by the crown height and valve relief depth of the pistons, according to half of the membership, then K8 heads on a "True KLZE" block(an abomination, please don't do this, I will actually slap you) make a KL-ZE as well. Good to know. Maybe I'll save some money and go that route.