Track racing a KLDE/ZE swap

[crazycanadian]

The coolant should enter the radiator at the top, straight from the thermostat, and exit at the bottom. If you have it backwards, it will generate a little backpressure, that could hinder its efficiency a bit, as the flow has to fight gravity (and convection) to go through. Maybe all you need is to swap out the hoses, and the increase in efficiency might be enough to keep your temperature under control...

Here are pictures... First is a 626 V6 rad... Not the outlet on the passengers side is at the top of the rad... This feeds the water pump... The thermostat side feeds into the bottom of the rad...


Here is what my 2.2L cavalier rad looks like... Note how the passenger side inlet is at the bottom and now the drivers side is at the top... This is reverse of what the KLDE is from stock..



As for the headers I could look into installing a head shield but I am not as close to the rad as you think..... I have 4 - 5 inches of clearance where the headers leave the motor.. From there as they down down the block they move away from the rad...

[MrMazda92]

The push/pull setup wouldn't impede the air... Have you ever put two box fans in parallel? You'll find that the forward fan(closest to you) is pushing air at a higher rate, relative to a single box fan. In addition, it's a road race problem... not drag, I'm assuming he isn't road racing in a straight line.

First, road racing is probably the most demanding form of racing, on the car as a whole, and especially on the engine and tranny. Not only you run most of the race at high revs (which, of course, generates a lot of heat), but you're racing, most of the times, at speeds that aren't that high, so you don't have a lot of airflow through the radiator.

Granted I'm no engineer, I expect that my simple explanation with the parallel fan setup will make it clearer what's going through my head.

Also, the thicker radiator core that was mentioned would hinder the airflow; I just remembered having read that. If the radiator has a smaller exposed surface(front end, where the air moves in obviously), and a thicker core, then it would make sense that as far as flow is concerned, it's less efficient...

[crazycanadian]

Inodoro your an a--... I have asked a pretty simple question as to how the coolant flows threw the stock rad and you haven't really done s--- to help answer that... I don't have easy access to a junk yard, or a stock 626 to look at so I don't know where all the coolant lines run on a stock car and I don't know how they hook up to a stock rad... I made an assumption about the thermostat line that you have pointed out was wrong...

If anyone wants to help fill in the blanks on how the cooling system connects to the stock 2.5L rad that would be help full... At this point I am trying to figure out if I have a coolant flow problem... This will affect what kind of rad I look at if I go with a new one...

As for zero room... I don't have enough room to fit a pull fan in between the header and the rad with out cooking the fan... Coating and wrapping the header could be an option but at this time it'll be one of the last thing I look at doing...

As for going to push fans instead I could do that.... But as pointed out this can hinder air flow across the rad.. I think I might have a bit of an air flow problem all ready so I wouldn't want to make this worse...

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Screw you.
Ever since you started this thread, I've been doing nothing but trying to help you, and instead of taking the advise being given to you, you chose to argue idiotic things you admit you know nothing about, and lie and contradict yourself every minute.

You don't want to follow other people's advise? Good for you. I'm through with this thread, and I'm through with you. Welcome to my "ignore" list.

[MrMazda92]

Inodoro your an a--... I have asked a pretty simple question as to how the coolant flows threw the stock rad and you haven't really done s--- to help answer that... I don't have easy access to a junk yard, or a stock 626 to look at so I don't know where all the coolant lines run on a stock car and I don't know how they hook up to a stock rad... I made an assumption about the thermostat line that you have pointed out was wrong...

If anyone wants to help fill in the blanks on how the cooling system connects to the stock 2.5L rad that would be help full... At this point I am trying to figure out if I have a coolant flow problem... This will affect what kind of rad I look at if I go with a new one...

As for zero room... I don't have enough room to fit a pull fan in between the header and the rad with out cooking the fan... Coating and wrapping the header could be an option but at this time it'll be one of the last thing I look at doing...

As for going to push fans instead I could do that.... But as pointed out this can hinder air flow across the rad.. I think I might have a bit of an air flow problem all ready so I wouldn't want to make this worse...

The push fans will not impede air as long as they are functioning properly. The only time this would really apply would be at extreme speeds where the increased airflow from the vehicle's movement caused turbulence in the fan blades themselves. Despite that, it wouldn't do enough harm to undermine the benefit...

[Daninski]

Inodoro your an a--... I have asked a pretty simple question as to how the coolant flows threw the stock rad and you haven't really done s--- to help answer that... I don't have easy access to a junk yard, or a stock 626 to look at so I don't know where all the coolant lines run on a stock car and I don't know how they hook up to a stock rad... I made an assumption about the thermostat line that you have pointed out was wrong...

If anyone wants to help fill in the blanks on how the cooling system connects to the stock 2.5L rad that would be help full... At this point I am trying to figure out if I have a coolant flow problem... This will affect what kind of rad I look at if I go with a new one...

As for zero room... I don't have enough room to fit a pull fan in between the header and the rad with out cooking the fan... Coating and wrapping the header could be an option but at this time it'll be one of the last thing I look at doing...

As for going to push fans instead I could do that.... But as pointed out this can hinder air flow across the rad.. I think I might have a bit of an air flow problem all ready so I wouldn't want to make this worse...

I think you need to calm down and re read your post. Your question has been answered and you should feel lucky Mr Pereyra has been trying to help you. He is one of the more knowledgeable people here. I think when your question has been answered you need to learn to say thank you.
Now I have a question; have you tried flushing your system. It could be partially plugged.

[_-Night-Shade-_]

^ Sorry guys, I think my friend Dan is under the influence again and it's affecting his judgement

[crazycanadian]

I think you need to calm down and re read your post. Your question has been answered and you should feel lucky Mr Pereyra has been trying to help you. He is one of the more knowledgeable people here. I think when your question has been answered you need to learn to say thank you.
Now I have a question; have you tried flushing your system. It could be partially plugged.

Since I bought the car a year ago I have had the cooling system flushed twice now... When the car was first built (I finished the build) it had brand new rad/water pump/thermostat and such installed...

The coolant should enter the radiator at the top, straight from the thermostat, and exit at the bottom

I had an MX-6, bone stock, with a KL-DE. The top hose goes to the thermostat (driver's side), and the bottom hose goes to the water pump.

So all this is telling me that the thermostat feeds the stock klde rad on the top drivers side inlet... but the two posts contradict one another... If I go by the top post it tells me there is a cross pipe on the stock motor the draw the coolant from the bottom drivers side of the rad??

but if I go by the first post then this tells me the water pump draws from the top passengers side of the rad..

Can anyone clarify this confusion?? and lend a hit as to what the 3rd inlet is on the rad then???

I seriously thing part of my problem is the water pump trying to suck coolant from the bottom of the cavalier rad, but I'd like to confirm this so when I look at getting a new rad I'll know if I need to change how the inlet and outlet is set up...

[MrMazda92]

^ Sorry guys, I think my friend Dan is under the influence again and it's affecting his judgement

You know, I've been warming up to you mildly since you've acted like an adult for a while now... but this post really bothered me.

You don't have to like someone to respect their knowledge, and what you're saying right here is just like what jackasses said about Michael Perry on PT. Those same jackasses benefited greatly from his work, and would never have the stones to admit it. For what it's worth, you've got a fair bit of knowledge to add to the forums; This does not justify bashing on other people who contribute, especially people who contribute despite being constantly bashed.

I'm not trying to rip you one, but I think what you just said was way out of line.

[Nd4SpdSe]

I stand with Night-Shade.

[Daninski]

You're having several problems here.

First, road racing is probably the most demanding form of racing, on the car as a whole, and especially on the engine and tranny. Not only you run most of the race at high revs (which, of course, generates a lot of heat), but you're racing, most of the times, at speeds that aren't that high, so you don't have a lot of airflow through the radiator.

Second, stock radiators are not calculated for that kind of sustained high rev driving. Even if you used a KL radiator, chances are your engine would still overheat.

Third, you're actually using a radiator for a SMALLER engine than yours, which even in normal driving generates less heat than the KL.

Because of all that, it's not surprising at all that your engine is overheating. You should use a radiator for a BIGGER engine, not a smaller one. If I were you, I'd start with a Ford 3.8L radiator, and see how it goes. Also, it wouldn't be a bad idea to cut a couple of vents on the hood, to help get the hot air out of the engine bay. Using a push-pull setup, as MM92 suggested, can also help.

I don't know, this seems pretty straight forward and accurate to me. I guess I didn't realize there's only two opinions on this site and they've made thier point well known. I say if you have an issue then sort it out like talking with the person one on one, typing trash doesn't benifit anyone. At least Inodoro tired to contribute and that's more than I can say about a few others here. If you have a problem or if you feel I've slighted you in the past then talk to me about, like men do or move on.

[MrMazda92]

I'll stand by reality. Opinions and attitudes aside, Inodoro IS one of the more knowledgeable people on this board. To say otherwise... you damn well better be able to prove you know more than him. Otherwise... You're just looking like a tool. "omgz hes not that smart, but he's smarter than me so I can't back that up with any evidence..." comes to mind.

[Ryan]

This thread is an embarrassment. Larger surface area and thicker core = more cooling. Also material makes a big difference, but also consider weight. Aluminium is a good choice since we're concerned about weight.

Push fans are on a lot of cars and trucks, most large trucks come to mind (concrete trucks run at high rpm while stationary to run their hydraulic pumps), because who cares which way it goes when its not moving, and why would you run it when you're cruising, the CFM of a fan will never approach the mass flow rate that you's see across the whole rad even at 20mph.

The AC fan must be a pull fan, because it runs exactly with our compressor.

Pick any rad that fits with the inlet/outlets in a location that you can work with.

I notice my new KL gets hotter in light city traffic, but it only has 1000 km on it and generates more friction than a 160k motor still, but I'll be looking into this as soon as I get home. Could be normal, my buddies probe does this too, now that I think about it. I'm just used to the needle never moving, like on my K8, B6, and BP's... I swear their thermostats never opened

More tactics to help with cooling can include a true CAI, header wrapping, correct coolant dilution, venting, running slightly rich, more venting, and keep moving.

A cheap easy thing to try would be to route your hatch sprayer to spray the radiator, since no one uses it anyway. Suby STI's have intercooler sprayers, as do many other IC'd cars... same principle will work on a radiator.

[Daninski]

I forgot to ask if you've considered that your temp sender might not be accurate. Swapping it out would be an easy/inexpensive check. http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php

[ccreech]

To answer the question asked origionally. No, a road raced KL will not overheat if properly cooled. I have run my stock GS radiator with my KLZE at track days all over Georgia and Alabama for at least 20 minute sessions each time and never had an overheating problem. In your case, if a flush didn't help, I would start with a new radiator and thermostat since yours is not suited to your application. Then look at fans if that doesn't work.