need help!

[Dentfixer]

damn lol i jus wanted to basically rebuild it top to bottom and port and polish all the goodies i can really. but i dont care how much power i get out of it honestly jus enough to be sweet. i have found some stuff for it but i didnt wanna go with the kl. jus mainly to be different

[Ryan]

Sigh to this thread.


You're kinda contradicting yourself. Sure, pull apart your K8, spend hour upon hour porting, polishing, rebuilding with expensive custom pistons and cams. It will be 'sweet' in the fact that you did things the hardest way possible for the minimal gains, but hey, you're special because you took that route.

Whatever floats your boat, but don't you think you'll feel a little dumb when the guy that spent 1/4 the time and 1/2 the money still blasts past you? Horray for special.

Are you simply intimidated by the swap? do you live in a part of the world that makes it difficult to move up to a 2/5L without legal penalties?

There's a reason people all do KL swaps. Because the K8 is a novelty motor, not a racecar engine. (Sorry Inodoro, but Honda has the best hp/displacement ratio in our price range) We're part of a knowledge pool thats grown since these cars were first made, and it naturally follows that we've found the best bang for our buck is in KL swaps

[Inodoro Pereyra]

There's a reason people all do KL swaps. Because the K8 is a novelty motor, not a racecar engine. (Sorry Inodoro, but Honda has the best hp/displacement ratio in our price range)

No reason to be sorry. I already have an application for the K8...

You are (like most people here) missing the point. Amazingly enough, in stock form, the K8 has more power than the BP everybody seems to love so much. Sure, the KL-ZE is more powerful. But if the guy wants to learn how to tweak an engine, the K8 is as good an option as any, and it has the advantage of being free (comes with the car) over an engine you have to spend $1k for, just to get out of the box.

About being smoked by somebody who's got a bigger engine, there's always gonna be somebody faster than you, ZE or no ZE. But there's a measure of pride on knowing that YOU got your car to where it is, by working on it, instead of just sinking money on it, and, I can't talk for the OP, but I wouldn't feel dumb just because somebody else is faster than me. I would feel VERY dumb, however, if my very fast car started having engine problems, and the guy with the crappy engine had to help me out, because I don't have the slightest clue about how my shiny new oh-so-powerful engine works.

This forum is what it is because most everybody goes out of their way to help others with their problems. No judging. No flaming. But then, every time somebody mentions tweaking a B6 or a K8, everybody jumps at them like a pack of wolves. Whatever his reasons, the guy wants to tweak his K8. Period. Is that so difficult to understand?

[Ryan]

You are (like most people here) missing the point. Amazingly enough, in stock form, the K8 has more power than the BP everybody seems to love so much. Sure, the KL-ZE is more powerful. But if the guy wants to learn how to tweak an engine, the K8 is as good an option as any, and it has the advantage of being free (comes with the car) over an engine you have to spend $1k for, just to get out of the box.

My BP was faster than my K8s, But it was rebuilt to factory spec compression. You're also comparing apples to oranges... K swaps are a terrible option for B series guys, and a BP is the foundation for real power in the B's. Yeah, people make power on the B6's, but its always harder. No to mention, a BP is a DBI upgrade that is perfect for people not shooting for an 11 sec 1/4.

Say this guy has enough money for custom pistons/overbore/rods/pay for P&P, cams, etc.

Why on earth would you not recommend he drop the extra $300 on a KL block? The gains are always a function of the displacement. No matter which way you slice it, you need more air for more power in the end. Not to mention there are alread tried and true excellent quality pistons, cams, etc for the KL block (which would save him money, likely more than to offset the cost of a KL block)

I am in no way saying he should just get a crate engine. Thats really lame.

About being smoked by somebody who's got a bigger engine, there's always gonna be somebody faster than you, ZE or no ZE.

of course, but your "now 160 hp!" $3000 k8 will still fall behind the $700 KLZE. I'm not going to bring other models in, because again, apples and oranges.

But there's a measure of pride on knowing that YOU got your car to where it is, by working on it, instead of just sinking money on it, and, I can't talk for the OP, but I wouldn't feel dumb just because somebody else is faster than me. I would feel VERY dumb, however, if my very fast car started having engine problems, and the guy with the crappy engine had to help me out, because I don't have the slightest clue about how my shiny new oh-so-powerful engine works.

You know that I'm all for guys putting man hours into their cars for that exact reason, what I'm not for, is telling a guy to sink time and money in the least efficient way possible.

You're making quite a few assumptions. KL swaps and builds are not more expensive than K8 builds. You are forgetting the fact that people don't really make high quality aftermarket parts for the K8's, and the cost of getting those parts (which are readily available for KL's) will by far offset the cost of a KL block.

next up, people who do KL swaps aren't guarnateed morons who don't know how their 'oh so powerful engine' works.

then, KL's are not unreliable motors, not moreso than the K8. A ZE engine won't blow up because you forgot to torque a set of rod bolts, or have shittastic compression because the guy doing the rebuild didn't align the rings correctly. I'd be more afraid of that.

This forum is what it is because most everybody goes out of their way to help others with their problems. No judging. No flaming. But then, every time somebody mentions tweaking a B6 or a K8, everybody jumps at them like a pack of wolves. Whatever his reasons, the guy wants to tweak his K8. Period. Is that so difficult to understand?

Ultimately it is his decision, but we have the knowledge that he is here for. What if he didn't know the 2.5 was DBI? What if he's simply afraid of dropping a motor because he is the moron you mentioned who think his car goes because he presses the pedal? He's here for a reason, and I think we do our job perfectly.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

I understand what you say, but, again, you're missing the point.

First, I never said to swap a K engine in a B car. What I did say is that everybody hails the 125 bhp BP like it's the best engine ever made, and at the same time dismiss the 135 bhp K8 like it's a piece of crap. It just makes no sense.

Second, , your BP was faster than your K8. Was the K8 also rebuilt? A worn out engine can produce half (and sometimes even less) the hp a new engine delivers.

Third, you don't need custom anything to tweak an engine. You can get quite a lot of extra power without spending hardly any money on it, other than for machine work and dyno time.

Fourth, there's a difference between recommending something, and completely dismissing other options because he who chooses them "will feel dumb" afterwards. The op specifically stated he doesn't want to get a KL. That says to me he already knows the KL is an option, and he also knows the differences. From then on, I'm just trying to help the guy do what he WANTS to do.

Fifth, what about my "now 200 bhp" "only a few bucks, mostly MY work" K8 holds its own again the "in reality, more than $1K" ZE? And what happens when both get smoked by some brat in a 390bhp, twin turbo civic? At least I have the knowledge to show for. What's the ZE owner have?

Yeah, ZE swaps and builds are a LOT more expensive than K8 builds. First, because you're starting with more than a grand just to get the ZE (I don't know where you live, but here in Miami, ZEs are $850+tax, +ECU, +VAF...). Second, because you don't need any aftermarket parts to build either one, unless you want to make obscene amounts of power. Again, KNOWLEDGE can make a lot more power than money.
And I never said ZE guys are guaranteed morons. But you can't compare the knowledge needed to swap an engine, to the knowledge needed to squeeze every last bit of power off the engine you already have.
Also, I never said KLs are unreliable. On the contrary: all K engines are bulletproof. However, there's quite a lot of talk about the several issues with the ZE: rod bolts, oiling issues, valve spring retainers... Do you know of any issues with the K8?

Most of the times, I agree with you completely: everybody here does their "job" perfectly. However, as I said before, the OP clearly stated he knew about the ZE, and didn't want it. From then on, our "job" is to help him achieve his goal, not to tell him what to do.

Again, like I said it many times in the past, I'm a member of more than a dozen forums, and this forum is the best by far. And that's because we're the best, and if that makes me immodest, so be it. But I think we could be much better if we stuck to helping others, instead of pushing them to do what we want.

[Ryan]

In the least rude way possible, I highly doubt you can make 200 BHP on a K8 just by letting her breathe. I'm looking foreward to it, if you get around to it. Without F/I or rediculous compression/cams, I believe it to be thermodynamically impossible, although I haven't done any calculations.


People hail the BP because it is the ZE of the B world.... N/A BP's are neat, boosted BP's are monsters.

It does make sense, because its all relative. Subaru owners bash the RS, even though the 180BHP (IIRC) knocks our socks off. You can't compare the BP and K8. They only thing they share is displacement.

No, it was unfair of me to compare a rebuilt BP to a 200k km K8. The K8 torque starts a little lower though. BP was also stuck running through stock intake and stock SOHC exhaust. Poor BP. my fastest K8 is just as fast, with cat delete and intake, which does make a spectacular difference, as my other K8 has 20PSI more per cyl, yet runs slower through stock intake/exhaust.


My point was that if you're building a KL, you don't start with a ZE. Why would you? a 300k KL block will be perfectly in spec unless it was overheated or generally trashed. I got mine free. A local yard around here lets a whole motor go for $150. Thats not the 1k base you speak of.

The op is here for advice. Although he came saying he doesn't want to swap, why? can't source a motor? afraid of the gravity of it? illegal? smog issues?

The KL issues SEEM more prominent because there are MANY more KL's than K8's, especially with people pushing power and rev limits.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

In the least rude way possible, I highly doubt you can make 200 BHP on a K8 just by letting her breathe. I'm looking foreward to it, if you get around to it. Without F/I or rediculous compression/cams, I believe it to be thermodynamically impossible, although I haven't done any calculations.

Don't worry Ryan. We know you're not rude.
I never said "just by letting her breathe". There's a whole lot of things you can do to an engine, to increase power.
I may actually try it in the future. But believe me: it's entirely possible. I have gotten 180bhp out of a 1.4L, carbureted engine before.
Right now, I'm a little bummed out, as I have just lost the deal of a lifetime (2 GSs (1 '92, and 1 '93) for $500), but once I can get back on my feet, that could be a really fun project.

You can't compare the BP and K8. They only thing they share is displacement.

True. The K8 is a much higher tech engine.

My point was that if you're building a KL, you don't start with a ZE. Why would you? a 300k KL block will be perfectly in spec unless it was overheated or generally trashed. I got mine free. A local yard around here lets a whole motor go for $150. Thats not the 1k base you speak of.

And you know perfectly well that I share your view. But, how many more in here can say the same? 90+% of people here wouldn't even think of getting a DE. Besides, the op is not talking about building an engine from a block. He wants to know how to optimize an engine.

The op is here for advice. Although he came saying he doesn't want to swap, why? can't source a motor? afraid of the gravity of it? illegal? smog issues?

The op is here for advice on how to get better performance off his K8. It's not our place to inquire about his reasons, if he doesn't feel like sharing them. Bottom line, he specifically said he doesn't want to swap, period.

The KL issues SEEM more prominent because there are MANY more KL's than K8's, especially with people pushing power and rev limits.

Hmmm..."In the least rude way possible"( ), are you sure? Are you sure there's more MX-3 owners that swap their engines, than those who keep them stock? Somehow I highly doubt that one. I have been fishing for an MX-3 for the last 2+ years, on Craigslist, keeping an eye on all the cities down the East Coast, from Charlotte NC to the Florida Keys, and, so far, I have come across 2 swapped 3s, one was the ZE white one I posted a few days ago, and the other one was the rotary abomination that somebody here in Miami had had on Ebay for more than a year.

[Ryan]

I'm not sure what to call it, but I feel very uncomfortable giving advice when someone walks in with an attitude like that. Makes me feel sleazy. I have to know why they, say, wouldn't want to swap. Otherwise I feel I'd be giving inferior advice... Plus, its never bad to ask questions


I feel the K8 vs BP argument deserves another thread, although its a useless comparison No one will ever have to pick between the two.


Does the OP want to optimize an engine, or his entire vehicle? I don't see the appeal in the narrow-er goal.


Yes I will stand behind the fact that the K8 is no more reliable than the KL.

I'm actually taking a course on this this semester, so I feel I have something actually to put forward here.

What we're comparing is K8 to KL reliability.

What you're saying is that because of the sheer number of KL's that you've heard of throwing rods, oil starving, etc, you think the K8 is more reliable, because you don't hear those things.

First of all, the way in which we're gathering this information is fundamentally flawed. We will always hear more about the swapped/modified cars than the non swapped/modified cars. Sideways-hat TJ with his KL MX-3 is 100% more likely to post on a web forum or show off his car in some other way than granny neufeld to show off her grocery getter.

Second, the fact of the matter is, all of the KL's you and I've heard of blowing up are out of moderately to highly modified MX-3s, PGTs, or MX-6s, and are very likely members of PT. None of them have the same mod set on K8's, so clearly you won't find the same information to make a comparison.

Consider that we hear nothing about 626's with these problems. This is the same reason we don't hear about MX-3 K8's with these problems. The cars fit in the same demographic - not a race car. The motors aren't abused the way the KL is.

You cannot conclude that just because K8's are not as commonly modified and don't blow up, and because KL's are commonly modified and do blow up, that K8's are more reliable, or perhaps 'high tech'.

Association does not imply causation! Especially with such obvious lurking variables...

That is a logical error.

I'd bet my underwear that if a K8 were to push 150-200% stock power like KL's, it would suffer the same common fates as KL's.

The motors were designed together for pete's sake. They use all the same basic AND technical design principles.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Ok, that discussion about K8-KL reliability definitely deserves its own thread. There's way too much information to consider to discuss it in just a couple of posts.

The OP started the thread asking specifically how to optimize his K8. If he wants to also optimize the rest of his car, I'm sure he'll open one or more threads about it later.

Anyways, I have something for you to read, that I found a few weeks ago. I'm sure you'll like it. At least I did.

http://www.tsentraal.ee/mx6/engine/SAE920677.htm

[Ryan]

I've read that a few times, its in the FAQ

[_-Night-Shade-_]

Wtf is this? Why does every thread I go on have people arguing like little kids? Inodoro, no offense, you're a smart guy, but Ryan's right on the money for this one. There's a reason why everyone does the swap. You just need to swallow your pride a little bit, I love the little K8 as well but it's simply not the way to go for performance.
And what's this crap about comparing the K8 to the BP? No contest. Find me a boosted K8 making 400whp. I would even go as far as saying that BPs have more potential than ZEs, they are just so boost friendly.

[Ryan]

I thought we were being rather respectful about it....

I didn't call him any of the cruel names I was thinking to myself

[Nd4SpdSe]

Indeed, I agree with everything that Ryan has said in relation to the K8 vs KL.

Although my old-skool wisdom seems to be outdated, it was said LONG ago that someone did a bunch of work to a K8 and only hit 150hp, not sure if that was bhp or whp, but it's far from the 200mark. And despite the HP numbers, you'll still be lacking in the torque guaranteed.

I terms of picking up a K8 vs KL, K8's usually are more expensive because they are more scarse, while the KL's you can get from Probes, Mx-6's, 626's and Millenias...they're essentially a dime a dozen...and as mentioned, there's pretty much no aftermarket internal components available for the K8.

Finally, ask anyone who has actually put some serious work into a K8 and they'll tell you two things; it's only worth it if 1) you can get the parts cheap or for free and 2) if you can do the work yourself or you know somone with the tools/equipment than can do it cheaply for you. If it wasn't for those factors, they would of never done it.

We're not trying to be mean, but we're trying to be logical about the process. Unless your restricted to sticking with the K8 for legal or race specifications, we don't want people to spend MORE money for LESS power output.

Oh, and in terms of comparing the K8 making more power for it's size compared to a KL, here's some numbers for you guys:
K8: 1845cc
KL: 2497cc

12.61 KLZE @ 198hp
12.81 K8ZE @ 144hp*
13.66 K8ZE @ 135hp
14.68 KLDE @ 170hp
14.92 K8DE @ 130hp
15.13 KLDE @ 165hp

[Inodoro Pereyra]

I thought we were being rather respectful about it....

I didn't call him any of the cruel names I was thinking to myself

I think we are being quite respectful, and I think this is an adult discussion, not us "arguing like little kids".

Night shade: you should stay away from the cheap stuff. It's making you see things...

But, seriously, what are you basing your statements on? Ryan and I talk from experience and specific knowledge on the matter. What's your reasoning behind your statement that there's no comparison between the K8 and the BP?
They're both 1.8L, 4 stroke, N/A engines. Other than the obvious mechanical differences, thermodynamically they're almost the same.
The only reason why you can't find a 400bhp boosted K8 is because people are in love with the KL. On the other hand, IIRC, the 400bhp BP I heard about in this forum was anything but reliable.
Meanwhile, if KLs have been boosted to over 1000bhp (for what I read on PT), I can bet my lunch the K8 can get pretty much the same figure, while the BP would probably end up landing on the Moon much earlier than that.

Nd4: based on your numbers, here's some numbers for you:

K8-DE 135bhp@1845cc=0.073170732 bhp/cc
Kl-DE 165bhp@2497cc=0.066079295 bhp/cc

So I would say that, like I said before, there's a CLEAR hp/cc advantage for the K8. Don't you think?

[Nd4SpdSe]

K8-DE 135bhp@1845cc=0.073170732 bhp/cc
Kl-DE 165bhp@2497cc=0.066079295 bhp/cc

So I would say that, like I said before, there's a CLEAR hp/cc advantage for the K8. Don't you think?

Not at all, cause our K8 is 130hp, not 135, that's the K8ZE, which brings it down to 0.070460704 bhp/cc, which is only a 6.2% improvement. As for torque:

K8-DE 115btq@1845cc=0.0623306233 btq/cc
Kl-DE 165btq@2497cc=0.066079295 btq/cc

What the KLDE may lost in horsepower by 6.2 gains in torque by 5.7% over the K8. You could almsot say they traded one for the other...but we're also looking at the motors at their lowest output, not at their best. If you wanted to make the K8 look better, you could always bring out the 160hp California-emissions KLDE into the mix.

Besides, the efficiency of a motor in it's stock form doesn't at all mean how much potential it had. Regardless, those numbers won't help anyone win races.