Reliable 400whp KL-ZE/DE

Custom_V6_Limited_SE · October 15th, 2006, 8:47 am

O, also, where should I get the sensors from? Would I have to get the OEM ones or are there upgrades available from somewhere else?

JWMotorsports · Post by **JWMotorsports** » October 15th, 2006, 9:53 am

Another good book to read is "Tuning Accel DFI 6.0" Between the two of the books you'll be ready to start tuning. Read them more than once and referance the tuning section in the other book. "How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems" is the best book I've read for learning about tuning and intake manifold design. Next up is the Accel DFI 6.0 book.

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That last Q is a tough one! It really depends on what your building the car for (power wise, especially how far your trying to push things), your tuning skills and patience, and your finances.

If you aren't worried about closed loop AFRs or dry nitrous control I would highly recommend the Microtech systems which start out at about $800ish USD.

If you need the nitrous control (the microtech can do some but harder to do) and your after closed loop AFRs go with the Haltech systems which start out at about $1500USD.

If your looking for all out control of anything you can dream up there is the two I'm debating on for my car as I'm looking to chase after the world record of "Fastest Street Legal FWD" I'm running out of cash though but am gunning for low 9s minimum in the 1/4mile with out any dedicated sponsors. The first one is the Accel DFI Gen 7+ and the other is the AEM system. They both are pretty darn close to having the same control and will do any thing you can think of. The Gen 7+ only has a 16x16 table...BUT...it interpolates 16 times BETWEEN each of those 16 points! The AEM has a 32x32 map and I'm not sure how many times it interpolates between each of those points. The AEM is supposed to be the best thing out there next to the MOTEC systems. The Gen7+ goes for around $1700USD and the AEM about the same by the time you get the wireing to fit the Mazdas (there are a few ways to do it, but is classified info) The other AEM is the Universal system and with the basic wireharness and EMS will run $2500USD. The TEC III is probably right there with the Gen 7+ and the AEM systems. The MOTEC systems....well they are in a class of their own and stomp basically any EMS system out there but start out around $2500USD for their cheap EMS box only and run $3000+USD for a full system. The MOTEC is more than virtually anyone needs except for the wealthy that need to spend more money than a normal person. The AEM and DFI are all virtually anyone needs period and have more control than MOST people even need. They can be timeconsuming to setup because of all the extra controls they offer. The best system for most people out there is the Microtech or Haltech E6X systems and the only people that need more control than that are people like me looking for the closed loop Nitrous, Boost, & EGT feed back correction with individual cycl. control. I'm looking at making 700+FWHP by the end of this project MINIMUM

and peak....well the sky is the limit until it looks at my wallet

JWMotorsports · Post by **JWMotorsports** » October 15th, 2006, 9:55 am

Sensors depend on what system you use. The Microtech uses your OEM sensors in most cases. The other systems usually lean towards GM sensors and can be bought with the correct sensors upon initial purchase.

Custom_V6_Limited_SE · October 15th, 2006, 1:26 pm

I noticed you have the Haltech E6K. Have you ever had any problems with it? What was it not able to do that caused you to want one of the more expensive ones? It sounds like the E6K is about what I want. Since I've never had a stand alone before, I doubt I'll be needing the MOTEC just yet.

Custom_V6_Limited_SE · October 15th, 2006, 5:43 pm

O, just to give everyone an idea of what I mean when I say I'm a perfectionist; this is what happened recently when I decided to clean my interior. 9115]

Need I say more? LMAO

Dali · Post by **Dali** » October 15th, 2006, 6:30 pm

hey yours has more interior in it than my se did last week

JWMotorsports · Post by **JWMotorsports** » October 15th, 2006, 10:18 pm

The Haltech E6K is darn near identical to the E6X but is the older dos version. It has a good bit of control except it doesn't run closed loop nitrous conrtol or throttle position maps overlaying the standard speed density maps. The other thing I'm looking to use when spray monster shots of Nitrous is individual cylinder fuel tuning via a k-type thermocoupler at each exhaust port. This will allow all cylinders to run at there peak efficiency at all times. On V8 engines it is usually worth 50+HP but on inline and smaller engines the gains are a good bit smaller. The main advantage is keeping from washing a cyl. out as all cyl. don't burn the same with out individual cyl. tuning. At the pressure ratios I'm looking to run you'd kiss your engine good bye in the blink of an eye if that occured!

Custom_V6_Limited_SE · October 16th, 2006, 12:20 pm

Question, I know that a few people on here have run 400whp on a stock DE; is that sort of the point where you have to have a perfect tune...and then the engine only lasts for 10k miles max? Or, would it stay reliable if it had a perfect tune? Obviously it would handle 300whp for quite a while with a good tune. The reason I ask is this; If it ends up costing drastically more than expected for this project or if I come up with less funds than expected (Expected ~ $6000) than I could lower the target to 300whp reliably, do a stock rebuild, and not worry as much about blowing an expensive engine (and still have enough to turbo it). Then, after I have been playing with it for a while at 300whp with the Haltech... (and I have more money), I could upgrade the pistons and rods and do the 400whp.

Also, the rebuild kits only seem to be for the bottom end; is there a head rebuild kit available or would I just buy an upgrade valve kit?

Steeb · Post by **Steeb** » October 16th, 2006, 5:04 pm

if you want 400whp and know you wont get a hunger for anymore i would definately use a s/c. s/c gives you n/a like throttle response and has less for plumbing. i am probably going to go with a turbo myself.

after about 300-350 boosted whp the kl in stock form will need new pistons and rods to last. it sure as hell can make more than that bone stock but as mentioned many times.... how long do you want it to last? the issue with adding f/i to n/a engines is that the injectors, hg, rods, pistons and in some cases valves are usually not ready for that in stock form. i believe there are people running in the area of 70psi fuel pressure and 100% duty cycle on stock injectors which i personally would not do.

BuGS wrote: I mean there are exceptions to the rules, but Megasquirt are really not that reliable for the MAJORITY of people. I have two friends local who have tried to get their cars running right and both have had problems. I also have a brother who has a Haltek in his RX7 who is aiming for 450whp and he barely had 220 and the haltek had a Grimlin and it detonated. $10,000 down the drain. So really if you need any more specific reasons go talk to a tuner. If you understand tuning is the most important part of a build, then take the word of a tuner. I have talked to Ralph from GroundZero in portland who DDs a 750whp RX7 which still has a 13B. Now that I think about it, he did say one important thing, sensors. Why build a setup and trust a brand new $10,000 engine with sensors with thousands of miles on them, and were not meant for that kind of stress. But really go talk to a tuner who is pushing a car to its limits, and drives it as a DD.

And as far as the freeze plugs, that was just an example of what I would replace, that small of a thing. Not saying the K-series has freeze plugs because I am a 4cyl guy, not a v6 guy, so I really don't know the specifics.

But if I was going to do a big build, I wouldn't trust it on a $500 build it yourself problem, cause I am not perfect and I would probably screw something up, no matter how hard I went over stuff, maybe thats why you are on your 2nd engine?

MAJORITY OF PEOPLE with megasquirts are not trained or experienced performance engine tuners.its not the reliability of the system but the reliability of the tuners tune. just because a few of your friends blew up their apex seals using the same system doesnt make the system unreliable. detonation on a piston motor breaks ringlands, pistons and can bend or break rods. a rotory blows apex seals. any amount of detonation on any motor will blow cause damage, different motors break different parts.

any good tuner will tune with a safety margin unless asked to do otherwise. just because we can all follow directions and make a ms system and install it on our own doesnt make you (me or anyone included) qualified to tune it. then when something blows up blame the system for our own unexperienced tuning mistake. this is why many ems manufacturers require proper training to tune.

JWMotorsports · Post by **JWMotorsports** » October 16th, 2006, 5:54 pm

Very well said!

For you rotary guys, friends, etc...check out Pineapple Racings specialty apex seals. They are designed to break at controlled points when subjected to detination which in most cases will save the rotor housings and end plates. The stock and most other apex seals take out nearly everthing when they grenade.

Detination works like a jackhammer inside your engine...LITERALLY!!! It will stretch head bolts....even ARPs in extreme cases and that is where most head gaskets fail. If detinated long enough you form hot spots that will eventually burn a hole right through the piston...nitrous is famous for this because someone gets to jet happy with the N2O and forgets about the fuel...same thing will happen in any form of forced induction. This is why a correct tune is so important. With a correct tune the engine life is then dependant on the bruit strength of the internal components, oil film, and clearances. Clearances is what makes an Engine Builder vs. an engine assembler. A monkey can put an engine together, but a Engine Builder will be REALLY anal about cleanlyness and clearances...which are not the same for every engine! V8s for example can run MUCH larger bearing clearances because the width of the oil journal is a lot widder than ours. You can compensate some with high volume oil pumps and shimming the relief spring 0.200" on the B-Series pumps to bring oil pressure up to about 45psi hot idle and 75psi hot 3000rpms (using a Mazdaspeed High Volume small snout oil pump shimmed 0.200"). Cold start is around 100-110psi with that setting and I DO NOT recommend shimming further as it will not allow enough oil bypass causing a oil pressure surge possibly damaging components. Within a range of what I described above the advatages are a little extra valve lift at high rpms (only with hydraulic lifters) along with an increased rpm range to around 8000rpms reliably. It will also allow you to open up the bearing clearances to about 0.002" reliably. Most V8 race engines like to see a minimum of 0.003" but its because of their wider oil journals. Larger Clearances with higher oil volume & pressure equates to less frictional drag and a larger shock absorbtion with out metal to metal contact.

Steeb · Post by **Steeb** » October 16th, 2006, 6:19 pm

im sure it can be made as reliable as a boosted setup nowadays if we had enough aftermarket support but id much rather have a 300whp n/a in an mx3 than a 400whp f/i. honduh b18's and b20's can make 250-270whp n/a with proper mods. with .7 more displacement and 2 more cylinders as well as a shorter rod ratio.

the btcc ford mondeo got rid of the 2.0 zetec for a kl @ 315bhp. destroked to 2.0 to abide with the rules.
this meant
1. the end of the praised g20's 4 year reign in btcc
2. 2 years of victory for the ford mondeo team.
3. ford sold tons of mondeos, none of which were equipped with the k series v6.

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/event ... _goodwood/

specs
http://contour.org/wwwboard/general/mes ... ote]Engine
Capacity:1,998cc, six cylinders
Alignment:Transverse, All Alloy 60-degree V6
Power Output: 315bhp at 8,500rpm
Ignition System:Pectel
Spark Plugs:NGK
Lubrication:Dry sump (Pennzoil)[/quote]

BuGS · Post by **BuGS** » October 16th, 2006, 8:00 pm

First off I must of confused you guys when I didn't start a new Paragraph or something. The rotary guys blew up their engines because their stock coil packs failed, or their magnetic pickups failed, part of the ignition system causing a missfire and boom, their goes their engines. And I am sorry but I don't think I need to specify about rotary engines on a MX-3 forum. And yes, all 5 engines were Pineapple built.

My brother's Pineapple built Large street port 13B blew up because of some grimlin in his haltek E6k. It was pre-tuned by a professional, but the system itself failed at some point (might have been a stock sensor who knows) and blew a Apex Seal, one of the "special" 3mm pineapple apex seals. When they took the engine apart the seal just fell into 10 pieces...

But then again rotory's are special, the best rotorys are usually the ones put together in someone back yard and just slapped together, most fully built ones always seem to have something bad happen... Maybe that is why the Falken FD's all have SR20DETs....

And just to address this one last time, Both my friends who blew up their engines with MS's both had stock Honda's. All they did was load up the stock map sent to them by MS and drove around, both of them blew their engines less than 500miles with the system. ANd both had the same problem, something grounded out in the MS box and caused a chip to literally BLOW UP. So they both got their's preassembled...

But then again all I have said is My opinion of what I have seen First hand. Maybe I just live in an area of idiots cause honestly who would do an AWD conversion to their MX-3....

Custom_V6_Limited_SE · October 16th, 2006, 9:04 pm

Even if I did a stock rebuild, I would get a good head gasket and head studs. So, the stock pistons and rods I shouldn't take past 350whp (with a really good tune) to stay reliable. Anything past that and I am going to need the better pistons and rods... I find a supercharger temting, but, I would rather get used to turbos because, soon after I graduate in 2009 (Computer Science & Computer Engineering), it's going be hello titanium rods ($8000+)... 1000whp+ here I come. I will still need to figure out a drive-train setup to support it though. If I actually pull off an AWD setup (distant future), maybe I could take some sort of record. *wakes up* Dang it, it's only 2006. I can dream

Custom_V6_Limited_SE · October 16th, 2006, 9:34 pm

O, in regards to the "grimlin", that does sound pretty dumb if they used the stock sensors on a $10,000 engine. I don't think that's the fault of the Haltech.

BuGS · Post by **BuGS** » October 16th, 2006, 11:59 pm

Custom_V6_Limited_SE wrote:O, in regards to the "grimlin", that does sound pretty dumb if they used the stock sensors on a $10,000 engine. I don't think that's the fault of the Haltech.

Well from the maps on it right now it seems the Haltek grounded out and reset the ignition map. It has happened before with other people too, but not enough to have any type of recall... But this was never confirmed since CS didn't remember if they had changed the Ignition map or not....