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Originally posted by rebel2k4:

Originally posted by Mnemonic:

Originally posted by mdavis:
It's not a matter of the turbo handling it.. it'a a matter of making sure the engine doesn't run too lean with 11:1 compression (yes, the KLZE is 11:1 not 10:1) you will probably get like 190-195hp out of it at the flywheel n/a. 12lbs is going to require some careful fuel mods..

sorry bud the klze is 10:1 not 11:1. and 12 psi is going to require more than just some fuel mods. TRUST ME ive been building my kfze (same compression as the klze) and im just simply trying to run max 8psi, ive done head and valve work and im still not close enough to run 8psi safely. and Babyblue is right wet injection ( you spray water in through your intake which will lower the chance of combustion) is a good choice in running higher boost, but with that your shortening your engine life even more.

Hmm... head and valve work add more power, they dont make running boost more reliable.

What makes it reliable is tuning. End of story. I have been running 5 psi non intercooled on a 130k mile junkyard KLDE and so far so good. Boost will be cranked to 10 psi shortly. All this on a stock engine and pump gas (91 octane here in CO).

And dont you mean that water injection lowers the chance of detonation? Combustion is what makes power. Detonation is what kills the motor. Detonation=uncontrolled combustion

yes it lowers the chance of detonation my bad on the wording. As for you running 5psi on a klde Hmmm let me think OH YEA 9:1 compression ratio, we're not talking about a 9:1 ratio engine were talking about 10:1, does it matter YES!!! Also doing both head work and valve work makes your engine alot more reliable when it comes to running boost, Now most people sit there think Hmm if i do this it will give me more Power YOUR RIGHT IT WILL more power at a lower Psi is better for your engine dont you think? i also think that adding Studs instead of the bolts we use for our heads wont really add power but at a bit more reliabilty dont you? And i dont think that SS valves add power at all, SS is a stronger metal, than the metal Mazda used. and a 3 angle valve job Or 5 angle for that matter, better air flow for your engine does this increase power YES is it better for your engine when running a turbo OF COURCE, who wouldnt want better airflow.

AND YES TUNING DOES MATTER!!
did i ever say it didnt? but think about what your saying, so i do just fuel upgrades get me a haltech system and have it tuned by the man himself Corkey Bell, you mean to tell me he has the capability to use that little program from keeping your engine from poping because you added to much boost? Please find me someone with a 12 psi KLZE with that setup and that setup only NO WORK ON THE HEADS OR THE BLOCK a completely stock top and bottom end. if one exist that hasnt blown or had any problems what so ever i will eat my words and apologise for thinking that you needed to build your top and bottom end up more to handle that much boost.

but like i said before, your gonna need to do some major work to run 12psi on your motor safely, if you decided against it and just throw you a turbo on there and add more fuel and try to tune it, then please dont come to this board and ask WHAT HAPPENED, when your engine gives out.

<small>[ September 10, 2004, 03:15 AM: Message edited by: Mnemonic ]</small>

I don't want to get off topic, but to how much psi can the stock injectors handle, with a fmu, fpr and a walbro?

you havnt noticed yet that there is a whole controversy??? Dude.. try reading the thread first. You COULD put 25lbs of boost on a stock KLZE... but safety and durability are the issues. Obviously if you put more fuel, more air into the same amount of space it makes more power, but consequently, it also puts more wear on the engine.

This topic has been post everywhere. Here are some good stuff I got months ago from PROBETALK.ORG:

you can also go to:

http://www.mx-3.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=000013

http://www.mx-3.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=000008


The only way to make more power is to increase cylinder pressure and burn more
fuel. The main purpose of the supercharger is to supply the motor with a more
dense air charge, which allows for the ability to burn the additional fuel. By
adding a supercharger, additional air should no longer be a problem. Ensuring
that there will be enough additional fuel to maintain the proper air to fuel
ratio will be the key to using the maximum effective compression.

All motors have a static compression ratio. This is the amount that the air
inside the cylinder is compressed. It is a ratio of the cylinder volume at BDC
to the volume at TDC. When a supercharger is added, additional air is forced
into the cylinder effectively raising the compression ratio. The result of this
is called effective compression. The formula for finding the effective
compression is very easy:

((boost psi / 14.7) + 1) x motor compression = effective compression.

The effective compression allows a supercharged motor to be compared to a
normally aspirated motor. For the most part, a supercharged motor with the same
effective compression as a (similar) normally aspirated motor with the same
static compression should have about the same overall power.

This may bring up the question that if the overall power should be about the
same, why go with a supercharger? The main advantage of the supercharger is that
it allows for a moderate compression level during normal driving while allowing
for very high compression levels when needed. Obviously a high compression motor
of about 14:1 makes a lot of power, but it would never survive daily driving. A
lower compression motor is great for daily driving, but greatly reduces the
potential for power. The supercharger allows for higher compression levels than
could be used without a supercharger, while still offering the benifits of a
standard compression motor. Many street supercharged systems will go beyond 18:1
effective compression under boost. Under race conditions, many supercharged race
motors will go well beyond 22:1 effective compression. Both of these levels are
far beyond what could be done reliably or cost effectively without a
supercharger.

This brings us back to the question of just how much boost or compression can be
run. Obviously there can't be a simple number that could be used for every
application. This is why it's so critical to chose the proper components. It's
not necessary to build a low compression motor to use a supercharger, but the
correct parts are still necessary. The biggest factors will be in things like
head bolts (or preferably studs), gaskets, and the strength of the other engine
components. It goes without saying that the incredible power that a supercharger
can add, can easily start breaking things. It is very important that as the
boost levels rise, the need for a stronger crank, rods, pistons, etc... becomes
very critical. Many people forget this as the motor itself is relatively mild,
while the supercharger pushes it well beyond the practical limits it was
intended for.

Now, back to the compression issue. Anyone who has looked into supercharging has
heard that you need a low (static) compression motor. This may have been true
once upon a time, when roots type (positive displacement) superchargers ruled
the land, but it's not so necessary now. The problem with a low compression
motor is that it relies heavily on the supercharger for its power. An 8:1 motor
is definitely not going to be a power house. Sure, you can throw 18 lbs of boost
on it and get some real power, but why? A higher compression motor of 9.5:1 will
have much more power without the blower. Then, with less boost you could easily
have the same overall power - only it would be much more usable. Both of the
motors (8:1 with 18 lbs boost and 9.5:1 with 12 lbs boost) will have almost the
same effective compression and about the same overall power. The big difference
will be where you see the power, and how much of a demand will be placed on the
supercharger. Obviously, the 9.5:1 motor is going to have far greater torque and
low end power as the boost is only starting to come in. It is also going to be
much easier to find a blower to survive only 12 lbs of boost -vs- one that would
have to put out 18 lbs. It is now very easy to see why a higher compression
motor with lower boost is becoming so popular.

Please understand that when I say higher compression and lower boost, there are
limits to each. Going over about 10:1 will make the amount of boost that is
usable drop quickly to the point that the supercharger is somewhat wasted. In my
opinion, anything less than 8 lbs of boost is a waste of a supercharger. Going
over 10:1 will also make daily driving with pump gas much more difficult. In
this same way, compression levels much under 9:1 will require substantial boost
levels to make massive power gains. This would require boost levels that are
very demanding of a supercharger. This is truly unnecessary. This isn't to say
that the lower compression / higher boost set-up doesn't have a slightly higher
potential for power, because it does. A lower compression motor has the ability
to contain more volume. This can be an advantage, but is such a minor one that
it's not necessarily worth the effort - unless it's for an all out race motor.
Even then there are limits for the same reasons as the street / strip motor.

Once again, the compression -vs- boost issue. For a car that will see the
streets (actually for most applications), the best thing to do is start with a
motor compression that is high enough to make the horsepower you want for normal
driving. Don't rely on your supercharger to make all your horsepower. With a
good motor compression, add as much boost as is safe for your particular
application. Decide on a final effective compression, and work your way back
through the formula to find your maximum boost level: ((effective compression /
motor compression) - 1) x 14.7 = boost. With the proper fuel system and related
engine components, an effective compression of 16:1 to 18:1 should be more than
workable. For heavily modified cars, effective compressions over 20:1 should be
very carefully considered. Remember, even Indy cars only run about 18 Lbs of
boost and reasonable static compression levels. Technology has come a long way
and modern day supercharging should take full advantage of this.

While these opinions are not exactly the most popular, they are based on facts
and real world performance. While there will always be those who continue with
tradition and stick with what was done in the past, it is those who reach for
something more that are winning races. Often times, some of the best advice can
be found from those who have done what you want to do. All too often it is those
who know the least that offer the most advice. After having been involved in
supercharging for many years, I have heard it all. Most of it was worthless. It
was often the least mentioned things and trail and error that have been the most
rewarding. Hopefully this information will help to explain some of the often
misunderstood aspects of supercharging.

okay, this is so sticky its disgusting.

Sticky as as a bucket of melted chocolate chips on the wall...

Mnemonic damn dude relax dont get so offended. For the record today is a 85 * day here in CO, I just cranked my boost to 9 psi. I;m running 91 octane, bone stock motor and I made passes through the gears over, and over, and over. My car loves it. I am also not running an intercooler. No detonation. My motor is still together.


My_Probe_Is_Faster ran a stock ZE and ran 10 psi. He also ran 12's in the 1/4 and didnt blow the motor....

My Probe Is Faster could've run 11s if he could get that power down to the ground, he was always saying how much wheelhop he was getting. His car was bananas though, 10psi on a ZE is crazy.

and he said his set-up was untuned !!!

rebel you got any really detailed pic of your turbo setup?

Sure do. Make sure you check out the 2nd link because the first one shows my pipe setup before I relocated the battery
http://www.mx-3.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=000851

http://www.mx-3.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=000875

Ive got some more pics I can show you of the merge and stuff. Since then I've also had a braided oil feed line made and a few other things. Definately hit me up on AIM or AOL my sn is scary hacker 2k

<small>[ September 22, 2004, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: rebel2k4 ]</small>

i got ya in, if i dont see ya hit me up at marauder3058 on there

Pre-Edited Version For The Censors:

[Gosh Dang!] You guys make my head hurt. All you guys do is [complain] [complain] [complain]. One person says something that may be wrong or mis-worded and everone else starts talking [feces] on them. Let's just answer the [sexual intercourse] question and stop wasting Jeff's bandwidth.

KLZE 10:1 CR, Very Boostable
KL03 (KLDE) 9.2:1 CR, Very Boostable

The KLZE is a little harder to turbocharge because of it's higher compression ratio. This is due to the fact that you have to tune it more precisely with a smaller margin of error. This is caused by the extra heat in the combustion chamber pre ignition, and therefore can cause the air/fuel mixture to ignite at the wrong time. preignition, detonation) If you take a little more time, and spend a little more money, you can turbocharge a KLZE to be as reliable as a stock n/a engine. I don't think that 12psi is out of the question. I do think it will take a lot more tuning to get it to run properly. Just think of the B18C5 (I know it's a honda engine, and we all know how I feel about honda engines) with it's 11:1 cr. People boost upwards of 12psi regularly. Yes, people will argue and say, 'They have a stand alone.' or 'They have spent thousands to do that.' but that's not always true. The higher compression ratio only heats up the mixture quicker making it prone to knocking.

And to paraphrase:
KLZE can be boosted reliably stock.

Things you may want to think about. The injectors on the Millenia S will fit well, and flow good enough for a turbocharged KL.

Thanks, and lets keep all the [nonsense] remarks to a minimum.

Damn it's good to be back.

.....oops!