1.8 V6 Upgrade

[9000rpm]

Hi. I don´t know if you are talking about true or tacho rpm. I am talking about true rpm. If not you must see more than 8K before limiter!!

This Probetalk.com guru is right: Kl will laugh @ 9Krpm and rod ratio is good too. Average piston speed is 22.3m/sec (73.03ft/sec). K8 about a7% less than that @same rpm (20.9m/sec or 68.5ft/sec).

Another point is reciprocating weight. Probe has larger 84,2mm pistons and the K8 much lighter 75mm pistons. That means stronger rods, meaning heavier, meaning stronger..

I think there is not much more dicussion about these engines because differences between them are basically due to its size (no, no, no, displacement!!), as design is similar.)

Indeed starting up with a 200Hp 2.5L in the hood sounds good. We´d be talking about 280-290 streetable N/A HPs... and that shuts any mouth up!!

<small>[ December 16, 2004, 03:39 AM: Message edited by: 9000rpm ]</small>

[lakersfan1]

Originally posted by 9000rpm:

Indeed starting up with a 200Hp 2.5L in the hood sounds good. We´d be talking about 280-290 streetable N/A HPs... and that shuts any mouth up!!

Well, considering that NOBODY has gotten anywhere near that I'd be surprised if you could do that with a KL. I also find it funny you're all worried about raising RPM's, but you haven't mentioned jack squat about solid lifters.

[9000rpm]

Hi Lakersfan.

It´s obvious that, in America, you are used to get power from displacement: big V8´s from 4.0L and up.

I can tell you, (not expect you believe me) that I´ve seen myself 230HP (crankshaft) 2.0L (4 inline) street engines and 280HP rally cars.

Building a streetable N/A 280HP (crank) 2.5L (high revving V6!!) is piece of cake around here.

My conclusion is that NOBODY (seriously skilled tuner) has tried todo it. I am not talking about, induction kits, bigger pipes, chip tuning and lightening flywheel but... you already know that!

Thank you for your reply!!

[bmwm3guy]

why dont you keep a tab on how much 280hp N/A is costing you and we'll compare that to a F/I MX3 with 280hp.

Sorry man but I am with lakersfan on this one, 280 NA hp is unheard of on this board. I am not saying its impossible, but go ahead and prove us wrong, I'd like to see a 280hp NA 2.5L.

[9000rpm]

Hi BMWM3!. Funny reading this from you. I´ll tell you why...

This is my demonstration. I am not going into longer/deeper discussion because it´s just... stupid

Exactly two weeks ago I seen a dyno run with a BMW M3CSL (STOCK!). This car made 343Hp (crank) @ 7680rpm claims 360 but I´ve never seen one with more than 350HP, Did I say STOCK?. As I am sure you know. This is a 6 inline 3245cc engine and, most important, bore/stroke is 87/ 91mm. You do the maths of average piston speed (did I say stock?).

As I know you all know what mean effective pressure is, you all know that this engine is doing something like 12.4.

This is a STOCK, very efficient engine , inddeed but with ALL features needed as cat, so stechiometric mixture, etc...

Again doing some maths and keeping the same MEP (supossed impossible to improve with serious job the BMW efficiency) and going to 8Krpm (about a safe 18% LESS average piston speed than the BMW) you get close to 280HP. Did I say stock and using 343HP instead of 350?

It´s been so easy to demonstrate it that there was no need to build the engine and dyno it!.

Thanks for your reply!

<small>[ December 16, 2004, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: 9000rpm ]</small>

[papa roached]

Originally posted by 9000rpm:
Hi Lakersfan.

It´s obvious that, in America, you are used to get power from displacement: big V8´s from 4.0L and up.

I can tell you, (not expect you believe me) that I´ve seen myself 230HP (crankshaft) 2.0L (4 inline) street engines and 280HP rally cars.

thank you for your generalization , i to have seen 4 cyls making that kind of power but consider this, they had an aftermarket, we dont and doing it on paper dont mean its gonna work that way in the real world

<small>[ December 16, 2004, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: papa roached ]</small>

[bmwm3guy]

Originally posted by papa roached:
doing it on paper dont mean its gonna work that way in the real world

Thank you. That was however an interesting theory.

do you have a dyno sheet of your 180hp k8?

[9000rpm]

Maths aren´t everything but with physics can show you trends of what you are doing if you know what you are doing. You´ll never get the last 5hp out of your engine with maths but you can promise that such conservative calculations I did are ABSOLUTELT RIGHT.

As I said I am not into deeper discussion about this issue because is nonsense and obvious. I tried to show light but to those who just don´t want ot open their eyes... Merry Xmas.

Thank you!!

[9000rpm]

Yes I have.... I know what you were thinking...

I feel younger in this forum, reminds me my exams at the College: all demonstrations, proves etc...

I am new at the forum but it seems you had too bad (fake) experiences here.

Merry Xmas!

<small>[ December 16, 2004, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: 9000rpm ]</small>

[bubbaflaat]

Wow, you aren't a nice man at all. You bust in here making all these ridiculous claims. And you just expect everyone here to forget everything they have ever learned about MX-3s and beleive we are all in the wrong for doing the 2.5 swap. But yet you won't show us dyno sheets, time slips or anything to that matter. You seem like a intelligent person. So how come you don't expect disbelief? Why would you want to put all the power at 9000rpms when you can have it at 7000? 4-bangers with 230HP N/A is very possible and have seen many myself. Why do you expect us to not beleive you? Ever heard of an S2000? Or how many 1.8L hondas are making that much power. They aren't stock. But that amount of power from a 4 cylinder isn't that amazing. I think you know too that it would be much easier to make us all "open our eyes" if we had some proof. Just like in physics, in order to create a Law, you must have all the other facts and proof to back it up. I'm sorry but you don't at this time. PLEASE show us a dyno chart, some pictures of the engine. And I assure you all of us will eat our words.

[lakersfan1]

Originally posted by 9000rpm:
Hi Lakersfan.

It´s obvious that, in America, you are used to get power from displacement: big V8´s from 4.0L and up.

I can tell you, (not expect you believe me) that I´ve seen myself 230HP (crankshaft) 2.0L (4 inline) street engines and 280HP rally cars.

Building a streetable N/A 280HP (crank) 2.5L (high revving V6!!) is piece of cake around here.

My conclusion is that NOBODY (seriously skilled tuner) has tried todo it. I am not talking about, induction kits, bigger pipes, chip tuning and lightening flywheel but... you already know that!

Thank you for your reply!!

Uhh. No. I never said that. I know other 2.5 liter engines could be gotten to 280 HP at the crank with mods. But NOBODY ANYWHERE has gotten the KL engine in particular to 280 HP normally aspirated. Not with all the custom cams, head porting, throttle bodies, exhaust, whatever. NOBODY has gotten ANYWHERE near that with the KL.

[9000rpm]

Excuse me, BubbaFlat

1.- I do not claim anything and if I WOULD, I don´t believe it´s fair you call it ridiculus.
2.- If I rather have power @ 15000rpm than @ 1000 rpm is ONLY my problem, my opinion and nobody else should be offended with it. I ONLY said what I did in my car and NEVER said mine was better only I like more. You just didn´t understand why, which I respect.
3.-I try to give some light into misconceptions and never called anyone "bad person", "not nice man" etc because SIMPLY I enjoyed the forum, not anymore with such comments. If I weren´t enjoying I wouldnt take my time to answer carefully
4.-It was not me who didn´t believe higher outputs than 100HP/liter. I used the 2.0L example as an obvious prove (as the S2000). Maybe my english is not good enough or eyou read too quickly
5.-I don´t care if nobody has done or not a 280HP KL engine. I only said that it is possible because I know. Saying that only means that NOBODY who has tried it knows enough to do it or wants to spend what it costs. Lots of people in US would be able to do it but just haven´t.
6.-Such destructive critics to myself (I hope I haven´t offended anybody, if so, not may intention at all!!) don´t even deserve this answer but... happens.
7.-Such destructive critics don´t suggest I post photos (I could get them anywhere from any stock engine or will you see Hp inside?) ,you would also ask me to attach CAD drawings for pistons and rods, or Dyno graphs (anyone here, me too, could do one a "custom" dyno graph in minutes).Either way you´d say it´s...
8.-It´s not my intention to make anybody shut up or eat his words as you say (this forum Guru) This is a forum, isn´t it?
9.-Anyway if this is a gang and you are the leader to tell all the rest when to stay quiet, shut the mouth and eat their words.. I don´t know the rest´s opinion and if so... this is not really worth.

Sorry for anywaste of time, and enjoy your cars thinking from the box. You know who you are.

Thank you all!

<small>[ December 16, 2004, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: 9000rpm ]</small>

[Rope04]

you can prolly accomplish over 250hp on the KL. Everything(EVERYTHING) on the block internally would have to be machined from scratch(ditch the Im mani and get a better flowing like czt DEFINATELY) to take out ALLLLLLL the little flaws. BALANCE EVERYTHING PERFECTLY and lighten some things also......I'm GUESSING around this to be $15-20k+ for N/A( includes tuning mod and fuel etc... TOOOO much money and time for me.I could be wrong! as most people with NEAR 200 whp spent around 3-5k in the motor...then you have to squeeze 50+hp out of that, would be tough but not impossible. IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

<small>[ December 23, 2004, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: MX-3.com ]</small>

[9000rpm]

Open minds welcome!

1.-Never said it was cheap.Maybe that is why nobody has done it before
2.-This engine could easily rev up to 8,5K for street with safe piston speed. Good light forged pistons would keep inertia within acceptable limits for an "Eagle type" (cost) Rods. Good crank balance,not any "ultimate" stage anyway. Good heads flow , maybe with oversized valves and most important good engine management with better tuner. I am not forgetting custom cams with performance springs (maybe not necesary) etc..

Yeap, not cheap! but...

Thank you

<small>[ December 16, 2004, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: 9000rpm ]</small>

[Zoso124]

I've seen enough of this thread. Sorry your preaching to the wrong crowd. If we own an MX-3 we obviously aren't in the market to spend $6-8k on a 1.8l just because its a 1.8l, we can spend far less to achieve the same if not better results.

I'm closing this before it gets out of hand.