Ryan's Final Build

[Nd4SpdSe]

Indeed I agree...good point

[Ryan]

Finalized the pump:



I drilled out the inlet a little, about 1/8, just enough that my fitting wouldn't bottom out, and then tapped it out with a 3/16-24 which is close to a 1/8" NPT which is what that side of the fitting was.
Drilled out the fitting as big as I thought safe.
Thread locked the threads, and put silicon around the faces that would seat.
5/16 I/D hose will thread into the other half of the fitting and then be clamped.

There was a little breather/bleeder on the bottom. I filled the channel with silicon, and then forced a teeny little screw into the teeny little hole, it will not leak.





Now I'm looking for a teeny a/c condenser/radiator of some sort. I'm hoping to find one that is ~12"x8".

Any pointers? I'm thinking water cooled bikes, quads, etc.

[Ryan]

Got the summers on just in time for the (hopefully) last snow of the season.



Getting somewhere with the oil cooler thing:

That was a trans cooler from a 2000+ focus... It'll do for $10. It was MINT, but then I put my thumb on it a few times (durr).

And I got my custom ZE EEPROM from Stoker100 (great guy)

[Sleeper6]

I suspect THIS is one of the issues:



Can you see the one little oil passage? Can you imagine how much oil can possibly be pushed through there at 20-70 PSI? Is that restriction more than the equivalent of all the bearings? That is, can that amount oil all of the bearings in the motor(4+6+10+10), along with whats left of the oil squirters at 7krpm?

Somehow I have a feeling that has something to do with keeping velocity not quantity, most engineers wont do something like that on a whim without good reason. Im really looking forward to seeing the results of this after a few months and how its holding up.

[Nd4SpdSe]

Somehow I have a feeling that has something to do with keeping velocity not quantity

For oil pressure maybe?

[Ryan]

That hole can be thought of as a throttle. It is a non-adjustable throttle.

Now pretend, switch it in your mind, so that throttle is the normal air throttle in the intake.

As your engine RPM's climb, the motor needs more air, right? Does leaving that throttle small INCREASE the pressure on valves? Not a chance. WOT will provide the highest pressure against the valves(or bearings in the oiling system)

Understand better? A throttle only increases the pressure on the feed side of the throttle. I want the bearings to be the smallest throttle, so that they always see the highest pressure (not the passage between the pump and the cooler, which oils nothing.

[Ryan]

Opted to go with a MTBT


(upside down view of oil pump)



Might work a spring into it too yet. I'll decide when I assemble.

[wytbishop]

The direction of flow is not very clear in the diagram in the manual but my concern is this...if the oil cooler (with it's smallish orifice) is the first thing the supply oil passes through on its way to the engine I don't see a big issue but if it as the last thing it passes through on it's way back to the filter as I suspect it is, by opening it to increase flow you will wind up dramatically reducing pressure in the whole system.

Your rpm/throttle analogy is fine but I would wager that that little orifice is intended to throttle the oil to generate the minimum necessary pressure required at low rpm. I believe that all of the oil in the engine backs up against the restiction in the oil cooler by design because the bearings themselves are not capable of building pressure. Imagine the amount of fluid that passes through a plain bearing spinning at those operating speeds. They would not represent a restriction great enough to generate pressure in the fluid.

If I'm right you'll know very quickly.

Also, either way I believe your pressure gauge will be rendered useless by this mod.

[Daninski]

Ryan I'd be inclined to play it safe and apply this Oil mod to an existing K8 so on the off chance there's some thing array you won't damage your new engine.
I was also wondering, what is the tube size I.D. on the oil pick up line leading from the oil filter screen? Is it much bigger than the hole in the cooler?

[Ryan]

You're saying the oil pump needs "backpressure"?

I had never considered it, but immediately it doesn't make sense to me... can you explain further?

The oil passes from the pump, into the housing, through the cooler hole, through the filter, through the threaded post, past the stock OPS, into the oil gallies.

I respect your knowledge, and you have me worried I'm missing a big concept here.

The pressure gauge won't be useless. All of the other gauges I've seen are placed in the same part of the circuit as all the bearings, so it reads what the bearings see. Putting this right by the pump would be incorrect, as would be putting it up on a cam bearing.

Matter of fact, the Probe OPG threads right into our OPS spot.

Also, in the pic solo posted, the oil cooler is absent on later models, no cooler hole.

I don't think you are correct. The pump operates independently of the rest of the system. You could run the pump on a bench with zero restriction on the output, it would work fine, its just a gear pump.
The pressure relief is built in so the pump doesn't grenade if it gets blocked (some people shim this, I KNOW this is a terrible mod with NO benefits whatsoever, tell your friends)
As long as it has that to regulate the max pressure, and no limit on minimum output pressure, nothing will change as far as the pump is concerned with what I'm doing. The bearings will now see the full power of the pump at all RPM's (assuming before that that restriction was the main bottleneck).

A throttle on a positive pressure system will only regulate the high side pressure, the low side pressure depends on the flow rate on that side(depends on another throttle).

I think I am correct.

Maybe you're thinking that the bearings are on the same side of the pump as that throttle? Thats what it sounds like now that I think about it... But that doesn't make sense, because then it would be in parallel, hurting min pressure at bearings, and would indeed render gauge useless, as well as pump unfiltered oil to the bearings...

all of the pressurized oil passes through that small hole before it hits any bearings. It is the a series component in the parallel system of bearings.

Imagine you're blowing backwards through an exhaust header. You can get x amount to each port. Now put a throttle right next to where you're blowing into, what you can get to each port must now pass through that throttle.

I think its incorrect that the bearings must see a minumum pressure... if they allow more oil past them, thats great assuming its healthy flow and not poor clearance flow. Think in reverse, why would you want to restrict the oil on its way to the bearings? I can't fathom any reason...


Dan, I have the pickup diameter in my thread on PT...

http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread. ... yan+oiling

~17mm


Sorry, if you didn't want to read all of my brain-babble:

-the oil cooler restriction is a restriction that all of the oil sees, it is a series component before the parallel branch of the oiling circuit.
-the pump does not require backpressure
-throttling the oil on the way to the bearings will not increase the pressure at the bearings.

[Ryan]

Wyt, you're mean for throwing that wrench in my mental cogs and then not coming back to see the aftermath, but I've got it figured out again.

Your first guess is right, that is the first and only passage that the oil sees before it sees the engine. It is not a parallel branch.


Anyway, miniature christmas today, although the packaging was much more beatup than your average christmas present.







Only a bit of damage:


But those gaskets suck, I'll be using the steel ones anyway.

Also,

BKR53E-11's.


Can anyone think or a reason that I can't mount my oil pressure sending unit vertically?

[wytbishop]

First of all...THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BACKPRESSURE!!! IT'S A MADE UP WORD THAT HAS NO VALIDITY IN SCIENCE OF ANY KIND. Pressure is a result of restriction to flow. Pressure always exists on the feed side of the restriction. There is just pressure.

Like I said the path of oil flow is difficult to be certain of based on the diagrams but here's how it breaks down in my mind...

I visualize it like a manifold...like a length of pipe with mulitple small ports. The manifold is fed by a pump and the oil exits through those ports to a sump pan where the pump pick up is.

If you put the filter at the front (feed) side of the manifold there will be no pressure at all in the manifold unless the ports (oil galleries) are smaller than the restriction of the oil filter. The oil galleries through the head and the block have to be smaller than the restriction in the filter/cooler or they would never ever be able to be completely filled. So if that's the case, the restriction of the filter/cooler is probably designed to provide a carefully metered volume of flow into the manifold (engine) to ensure that the galleries have good flow at all engine speeds.

On the other hand if you put the filter at the return side...after the oil has flowed through the galleries (all hydraulic fluid power systems filter the oil before returning to the reservior BTW), and it is the greatest restriction in the system, the entire manifold sees the pressure which builds up behind that restriction. So I can engineer that filter restriction to exactly calibrate the pressure in the oil galleries. This makes far more sense to me, but I genuinely don't know if this is the way the system was designed. If this is the case thought...opening that restriction will kill the pressure in your engine...which will quickly explode.

Either way I think it's crazy to second guess the design of the oiling system but maybe it'll work just fine. I guess we'll see.

[Ryan]

But the idea of "backpressure" is that it is on the outlet side of the exhaust valve, so, although its pressure resultant from the restriction in the exhaust, its a handy term.

Gonna quote you here...

Pressure always exists on the feed side of the restriction.

So, assuming you're actually understanding how the flow looks, and using this quote above, how exactly will a throttle increase the pressure at the bearings? You have killed your own idea, unless you aren't clear on how the oil flows.

Idea, I will draw you a picture.



Black is pump -> restriction
The green is post-restriction pre-filter.
the blue is post-restriction post-filter, exactly what the bearings see.

Also, there is a difference between pressure and flow. Its like turbochargers, people talk about boost PSI all the time, when its really CFM that matters. A turbo capable of 150 PSI that can only move 2 CFM is totally useless as a turbo.

The pump does pressure and flow. They are not related. The pump is a positive displacement pump, it will always move x amount of fluid based on its speed. If it moves it faster than the bearings can use it, it will build pressure, and since how the bearings let it past is a function of pressure, it will hit an equilibrium.

Putting a throttle in that balance will, at some point, limit the possible flow of the pump to the bearings, and the amount the bearings require will continue to increase. This messes up the nice little equilibrium, and the bearings will not see adequate flow, and the pressure will drop.

[Ryan]

Fitament was not bad. Easily muscleable. They ovalled the holes pretty good so there is a decent amount of play, sacrificing the concentricity of the manifold and ypipe.

I invented 3 words right there.


Also, I'm pretty spoiled when it came to installation.


My plan is to wrap them only around the oil pan area there.

[mx3stylez]

Looking good man, I'm interested in seeing how all of your oil system modifications turns out.