Electric MX3 Conversion

[wytbishop]

If you come out with an electric conversion that can do at least 60 miles lmk pls.

The electric motorcycles have somewhere around that range for 9 thousand dllrs and 4thousand in other states. (government tax credits)

Im sure an electric mx3 that costs 13k to make can cost around 7k to make in different parts of the states due to government credits.

http://www.canev.com/Customer%20Conversions.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's just the feedback from their site but clearly the S-10 conversion that they offer is working well for a number of people. I sent an email to get pricing on their universal kit but haven't heard back yet. Given that it won't contain the battery boxes and such I imagine it will be somewhat cheaper than the S-10 kit.

[Newfie_dan]

lol it depends on goals, and there is the technology out there that addresses the issues that come with traditional lead acid deep cycle batteries, where you fail to come on par with this arguement is that deep cycle battery technology has come a long way from the huge electric forklift batteries, there is no comparison, they require such large batteries due to the huge amount of weight of said forklifts and the amount of juice they require. I have about 2 dozen deep cylce batteries in my shop that are good for 800 charges if they are using the proper charger. Most of the heavy equipment in my shop can run on pure electric and dollar for dollar electric is cheaper to run than any ice engine. You talk about maintenance, well lets look at that, the electric machines are virtually 1/4 the cost compared to the ice engines, yes in a conversion you will have the trans to deal with and the wheel bearings, tires and breaks, but when you compare an average of $1/100km over $10/100km based on what we pay here (which averages to about $1/L of gas) so up front its a bigger cost but running costs which is the largest portion of the lifetime bill of a vehicle. Now lets look at rebuild costs, average rebuild of an ice engine runs between $200-$1000 in parts a electric motor runs $20-$100 to rebuild, and trust me I have done enough of them to know a thing or 2 about it. The highest dollar cost here is the battery and controllers. I am not saying that electric motors are perfect by far and they do have their limitations, but when you look at the advent of better batteries like li-ion and dry cell technology batteries, the cost of which is getting cheaper with mass production and mainstreaming of these technologies electric cars are going to be a highly viable option in the near furture. As for people who think they are boring, well do a youtube search on electric drag carrs see what you find.To wytbishop there is a company in toronto that makes electric cars (kinda looks like a smart car) with a decent mileage that is supposed to be able to survive edmonton winters. http://www.zenncars.com/

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Hmmm... I said I didn't want to start a debate, yet you guys ended dragging me into one. This is my last post in this thread.

@ Newfie Dan: a battery that allows 800 deep cycles is not a true deep cycle battery. If you use those batteries in a car, you're still looking at little more than 2 year lifespan. And that, to have the "privilege" to be able to drive 50 to 60 miles with a charge, and to have to connect your car for hours afterwards to recharge. So you're looking to, best case scenario, have to replace a dozen batteries every 48000 miles. Not even hybrids are so expensive.
But yeah, electric cars are bound to be a viable option in the future. If you look at my first post, you'll see that's exactly what I said. But for that to become a reality, there are many technologies that need to improve, not only batteries.
Batteries not only need to improve in durability, but also in weight, and charge capacity, and, more important, in their ability to withstand fast charges. A car that needs to be plugged in for the whole night after a 60 mile trip is just not practical. If and when somebody figures out a way of charging a battery pack with enough juice to last for, let's say, 150 miles, in a few minutes, THEN electric cars are gonna be an option.
That takes us to another key technology that needs to go a long way: charging. They need to figure out a way to deliver the charge to a car, in a more sensible amount of time, without needing a crane to lift the wires. That could be (maybe) achieved with the use of superconductors, but, at least as far as I know, nobody has come up with a flexible material that's capable of superconducting at ambient temperature.

As per the maintenance costs, you're forgetting a little something. A normal ICE can typically run for 20+ years without a rebuild. That leaves you with more than 10 battery changes, plus motor rebuilds, controller and system overhauls (power transistors and even wires are not that durable at those currents), ect. Add to that the fact that, as I said in my first post, not everywhere electricity is cheap. I can tell you of at least one place (Argentina, my country) where an electric car would be almost impossible to afford for anybody but the wealthiest of people, even when gas is also not cheap.

So, to finalize, like I said before, I'm sure electric cars are gonna be viable in the future. I'm sure solar cars will also be an option. But those will be cars that are DESIGNED for an electric motor. Converted cars will be, as any other converted machine, a half a$$ed solution at best. But most importantly, TODAY, electric cars, converted or otherwise, are little more than toys. There's a reason why specifically designed electric cars are featherweight and small, and there's a reason why they're so expensive.


Edited | Admin Notified | User Notified

[Newfie_dan]

You are entitled to your opinion and you have some valid and invalid points, I am not saying that they are for everyone however many have made a conversion a very viable and cost effective swap. There are more and more people doing it all the time, the ice engine is far from perfect running at a piss poor effeciency level, even when you add forced induction to up the volumetric effeciency still does not touch electric. Diesel is the best bet for trying to compete. The main reason why people do not switch is the exact same opinion you have which by the way is flawed but to each their own. The technology to make it viable is not only here but its cost effective. Zen motor company has proven that, if I could get one licenced here I would buy it, saskatchewan is a lil backward in that respect. I know a great deal about evs and have done a lot of reasearch on them so i stay up to date on what is new and what is on the market, it helps with my job to stay on top of this stuff. I work on them nearly every day now and I will take an ev over a ice to work on any day. Anyhow I digress this is not the forum for a debate like you said as much as stating that I think this project is very cool, and do not listen to people who tell you its not practical, who cares go against the grain and do it regardless. Just a tidbit for you indo, a zen car has a 400 km range at 125 km/h (250 mile range at 78 mph) on a single charge, you do not need to charge it every day unles you are travelling that far every day, just like you do not fill up every day unless its required. For every excuse or problem there is a viable solution out there, you just need to dig deeper to find it.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Just a tidbit for you indo, a zen car has a 400 km range at 125 km/h (250 mile range at 78 mph) on a single charge,

Are you talking about this car?

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car ... _road_test

Even with two aboard, the ZENN reaches 25 mph a hair quicker than it takes Usain Bolt to cover 100 meters and can squeal its skinny P145/70R-13 Klebers (a Michelin brand) from a standing start. The per-charge range is about 35 miles, less if you squeal those Klebers a lot, less still with the optional air conditioning on.

I think your numbers are a little off...

[ethand]

Sorry, Wytbishop! I knew where it was, but was quickly flicking back and saw a date and plugged it in hahaha... my bad... still, July is a fair while back to not have a single update on a project such as this...

Im sure an electric mx3 that costs 13k to make can cost around 7k to make in different parts of the states due to government credits.

This is and EXTREMELY valid point here. I'm not sure if you are quoting amounts that amnon had suggested, but remember that this project is taking place in Australia, where this stuff is bloody expensive! Despite our excellent exchange rate (currently around the 97-99c=US$1) - for example, a base-model Toyota Corolla in Australia is about AU$23k, plus onroad costs/taxes (which would be about an extra $2-3k or so)...
I'll leave the rest of the arguing to the rest of you - I cant be stuffed with that c***

[umcamara]

@ Inodoro and Wytbishop - You're both too smart for your own good. Play nice. Is this where you wanna be when Jesus comes back??

(That's a joke...)

[wytbishop]

Sorry, Wytbishop! I knew where it was, but was quickly flicking back and saw a date and plugged it in hahaha... my bad... still, July is a fair while back to not have a single update on a project such as this...

Hey no need to appologize. Sorry if I came off a bit strong there.

Here are my final thoughts on this topic for now...calmly...not ranting...not even worked up. Just saying what I think.

Any discussion of the performance aspects of an EV conversion have to be temepered with the knowledge that the point of converting a car to electric is completely entithetic to the concept of performance. It has been pointed out here that a 60KW electric motor will have less HP and torque than even the least powerful variant of the B6 and that's absolutely true but I would suggest it is totally beside the point. The point is not to come out of the deal with a comparably performing car. It is to create a functional car while avoiding buying gasoline. No the shift points in the car's stock transmission are not going to be ideal for the efficiency and rpm range of an electric motor, but lots of people are doing it and if you do it carefully and don't try to drive your EV the way you did when it was an ICE car there's no reason it won't work just fine for your needs. (Lots of people report breaking trannies and axels because the electric motor delivers full torque immediately, whereas you stock IC engine has very low torque at idle. You can't punch it off the line like you used to.)

The question of range is a big issue obviously. I have no illusions as to the authenticity of the claims made by the marketing departments of the big name cutting edge EV makers. Of course they're going to try to sell a Utopian image with unrealistic numbers like 250mi at 87mph. The truth is that every day I drive 27km to work and 27km home and sometimes I run an errand on the way or go to the gym or whatever. I do about 60km a day on average and that represents about 90% of the "daily driving" I do and most other people do as well...but not everyone. If you drive 120km a day you will probably not be able to do it in an electric car on one charge...especially if there are hills.

The issue of batteries is a big one as well and personally my greatest concern. I don't want to simply replace my current fossil fuel waste with an equal or greater lead-acid battery waste. But here's what I know from professional experience. The company I work for supplies technology to the oilfield. One of the mobile service vehicles we operate is called a Field Welder. It uses a proprietary welding technique called "Electric Flash Butt Welding" which is accomplished by wiring 12, 12V deep cycle commercial grade batteries in series and essentially discharging them through the rods which we are welding together. A typical Field Welder does 3-5 welds a day and on each weld the batteries are completely discharged and then recharged quickly in order to perform the next weld. So in the course of a year between annual inspections the batteries will be discharged and recharged 1000-1500 times. This is the hardest conceivable service for a battery to experience and we typically have to replace 3-6 batteries from each unit each year. We track battery replacement very carefully and the average battery under these conditions lasts 14-18 months which equates to something like 1600 charges...about 100 welds a month on average. These are precisely the same batteries that would be used in the cheapest form of EV conversion. If they lasted even 1000 charges on average that would be more than 3 years if they are charged every day. Some will die sooner and some will last longer, but I can handle replacing every battery every three years on average to stop buying gas.




Edited | Admin notified | Users Notified

[Newfie_dan]

@ inodo; The specs listed in the review link you posted is based off their old battery system (2008),the new system (EEstor) they use is much more effiecent.
One way to get past the problem of charging is to simply have battery swap/charge stations where you simply change a battery cell instead of charging it yourself on longer drives, the only real hinderance to this is making a standardized battery cell pack which is swapped out easily and quickly. Most manufacturers will not want to conform to a standardized cell. The real thing to remember here is exactly what wytbishop said, its not for everyone, and you do need to adjust to driving an ev over an ice vehicle.

[Nd4SpdSe]

I think the swappable battery pack idea is absurd.

They will have good battery tech in the future, it's very close

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0503/05032 ... inbatt.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(wow it's been that long since)

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17912_3-10442110-72.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They're also developping super-capacitors that they think may be a better solution. Capable of quick charge (and discharge) because it's storing pure energy rather than converting electrical energy into a chemical and back.

[wytbishop]

I got this from Canev today. It's a list of the components contained in their universal AC kit. This does not include batteries or fabrication (Boxes and brackets).

Converting: Mazda MX-3
AC 50 Drive System: Motor, Controller, Harness & Dash Display 50hp peak/continuous 6500rpm 4,850.00
Mazda Miata Motor Adapter for 9" Motor with Hub 825.00
QuiQ Charger 96 volt 600.00
96V DC-DC converter (isolated) 295.00
AC50 Main Contactor 24V 125.49
PB-6 Potbox Style 136.62
Class T Fuse 400 AMP 56.51
Class T Fuse Block 225-400A 60.33
Heinemann Single pole 250 amp 125 volt DC breaker 226.48
Cable Emergency Shutoff 10ft with cable end fitting 31.85
Inertia Switch 56.00
Control Box - Main with connectors (Not Wired) 395.00
EV Pro Fuel Gauge 282.24
Prescaler with built-in DC-DC 114.24
Charge Port: 125V 30A 39.93
Heater Contactor - 14 volt CO coils 42.06
Heater Element 36V-108V 1500W 125.00
Battery Cables 2/0 (60 feet) 287.50
Battery cable ends, boots, heatshrink, markers and felt washers 182.59
Vacuum Pump 12V with Switch and Mounting Feet Installed 468.52
Power Steering Pump - Electric w/ Reservoir, Breaker, Solenoid and Hose 825.00

That's about $10k + tax + batteries + fab....+ a car. So it's not a cheap conversion by any means, but then people spend $30k+ to drive a Smart car because it gets 60+mpg...so I dunno.

thought it might be interesting.

[Dragon1212]

Thats no expensive at all.

[Newfie_dan]

The cost of the controller has been one of biggest costs stopping a lot of people, now mind you it does beat buying a new car if you have a shell to start with, I do remember coming across an article on an electric miata a few years ago, it was pretty neat to see the swap he went through. Here we are http://www.evmiata.com/

[ethand]

oooooooooooooooohhhh thanks dan, awesome link!!! I SO want one hahaha... I still dream of getting an original MX-5/miata one day...
despite its (fairly) small range, it would still be more than enough for me for driving to work each day, etc., and I could charge it over night I guess... and for $15k, thats pretty sweet!! (a normal MX-5 from around '89 costs about $9K in Australia... but then, cars are mega expensive here )

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Dan: I've been reading a lot about Eestor (I admit I didn't have a clue as to their existence until I read your post), and, I have to say, it looks a lot like a scam to me.
Of course, nobody can claim for sure it's a scam as of yet, but, on the other hand, nobody can either claim their technology even exists, being that it has yet to be demonstrated.
So, as of today, the Zenn car has the performance I found in that article, as an Eestor powered car doesn't yet exist (at least for what I could find), nor there is any real reason to trust it will ever do.

Other than that, I agree with Nd4 that a swappable battery system, doesn't seem like a good idea, for many reasons, starting with the weight of a battery pack (and therefore, the handling difficulties), its volume, its limited lifespan, ect.

Now, the way this thread has evolved, I think everybody is here getting the wrong impression. I would LOVE it if somebody finally created a competitive electric, solar, or any other alternative fuel car that would finally get us off the dino fuel age. But, so far, it still doesn't exist.
Sure, there will be people who will gladly spend $10K or more (sometimes much more) on a car, just because it's a new concept, and be real happy with it. But that doesn't make it a valid option.
I have been following the evolution (or better yet, the "promised evolution") of alternative powered cars since the mid '70s. In '76 or '77 (I don't remember exactly), NASA developed a "Beta Alumina" battery, initially aimed to be outfitted to artificial satellites. Not long after, articles started popping everywhere, saying that a long range, high power electric car was IMMINENT. Early '80s, the amorphous silicon technology for solar cells was developed. Solar cars were gonna be a reality within the decade.
And the list goes on: Metal hydrides, algae, bacteria, hydrogen gas, ect. All a great promise, none delivered.
Then, in the mid '80s, a new type of ceramic superconductor was developed, that could superconduct at the temperature of liquid nitrogen. Huge breakthrough, probably one of the greatest discoveries of the century.
At the moment, experts concurred that a flexible superconductor wire , capable of superconducting at ambient temperature, was just around the corner. Physicists were talking about possible densities of 1000000 A/mm2. That would've allowed to build tiny, immensely powerful electric motors. So far, never happened.

So, until there's a company that actually GUARANTEES, IN WRITING, that they have a car that can deliver that kind of performance, sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, it's a pipe dream.

Meanwhile, you want to stop buying gas? You want to spend pennies to the mile, while drastically reducing your car's emissions? There's a REAL technology, that has existed for at least 30 years, that allows you to do just that: CNG (Compressed Natural Gas).
First, don't make the mistake of confusing CNG with propane. CNG is mostly methane, compressed to 200 bar (almost 3000 psi).

Now, I have DRIVEN SEVERAL CNG powered cars (as I've been a taxi driver in Buenos Aires for about 3 years, and almost all cabs in there are CNG powered), so I can tell you, with absolute certainty, that:

The modification needed to run CNG in any normal car costs about $1500, instead of $10K+.

The only fabrication required is to mount the tank in the trunk, route the gas line, install the adapter and regulator in the engine, and run the coolant lines through the regulator. Two hours work, tops.

A 65 liter tank of CNG costs about 2 dollars to fill up, and gives you, on a 1.8L engine, about 150 miles city drive, 200 miles highway.

The performance remains almost identical to gas.

Maintenance costs are reduced. Even the oil lasts longer.