Fuel economy/Heat recovery

[amnonholland]

getting a wide band O2 ASAP. Ultimately i want to find a balance with (power and FE) with regards to tuning.
I know my electronics are "inferior" to a FMU, but spending a grand on a FMU may take a while to recoup costs.
I dont see why there would be any problems using this as
1- i can monitor operation through wideband AF and EGT
2- i can program a 2-d fuel map across the RPM range without having to laptop program on a dyno
3- Im not making significant AF changes. Slightly leaning but keeping AF less than 18
(Yes that sounds lean, but stoic combustion for LPG is 15.8:1)

Anyone know how the knock sensor modulates. I was thinking as a safety measure, i could somehow monitor this.
Or is the stock knock sensor not sensitive enough?

I would seriously like to see a worklog for your car.

I would like to, but i cant take credit for installing it because i didn't.
In australia to be eligible for the $2000 LPG rebate you must have it installed by an accredited installer.
feel free to ask any questions about it.
The engine runs much smoother on LPG
Maybe ill post some pics of the install some time but thats on another thread
http://www.mx-3.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.ph ... PG#p512155" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With MegaSquirt, you can have 2 different fuel and spark maps

That would be nice to have a fuel map for each. ATM my fuel map is optimized for lpg because its only 60cents/Litre and petrol is $1.35/Litre

ts just as well to do an electrical conversion and make the car an electric vehicle making it some 80% effecient.

I agree and have put much thought into it but am waiting for LiPo4 batteries and ultra-caps to come down in price.
Imagine how much fun a torquey mx3 would be

and if its a personal vendetta to try and out-engineer the rest of the specialist engineers in the world using the budgets of auto manufacturing companies, I wish you the best of luck, but won't be watching your worklog.

I know some of my ideas were a bit overboard, but they were just ideas.
Im a first year uni student studying renewable energy engineering.

and if its about the environment, get a bike.

Haha i did but it has same FE as the mx3

[RS_OBD'oh_2]

2- i can program a 2-d fuel map across the RPM range without having to laptop program on a dyno
3- Im not making significant AF changes. Slightly leaning but keeping AF less than 18
(Yes that sounds lean, but stoic combustion for LPG is 15.8:1)

Anyone know how the knock sensor modulates. I was thinking as a safety measure, i could somehow monitor this.
Or is the stock knock sensor not sensitive enough?

I would like to, but i cant take credit for installing it because i didn't.
In australia to be eligible for the $2000 LPG rebate you must have it installed by an accredited installer.

The SAFC uses a built in map and not a laptop. Made by a good company, worth about $400 and is still crap.

Can you explain to me where you got the 15.8:1 stoich instead of 14.8:1? I might be missing something here. With out increasing your octane rating you are running into trouble.

I already told you that you will probably need an AF/Knockamp. This is going to add another couple hundred to your build and will have to be tuned by a pro.

I fail to understand your thinking here... You are doing this for a $2000 credit? I thought you said you don't care about the car and that they are only worth $2000? Which is it?

[Newfie_dan]

actually if you find an eletric forklift at an auction thats in working order or a good electric golf cart you can do the electric conversion rather cheaply. The batteries can always be swapped later on down the road. Caps are not really a necessity but they do help out. An electic forklift will give you about 90% of the parts you need to do the swap. Look up the forkenswift conversion online. They did it for pretty cheap. Now torque is a matter of voltage/motors and the quality of the batteries. there is a 10 second electric car out there that beats 90% of ice cars off the line.

[amnonholland]

Can you explain to me where you got the 15.8:1 stoich instead of 14.8:1?

15.8:1 can be derived from the chemical combustion equation of Methane and propane in air
LPG combusts with air at a slightly different AF ration than petrol.
LPG has a high octane rating of between 100 and 106 depending on methane and propane gas ratios

Sorry, my clarifacation, the $2000 is a credit that the government here give, for having LPG injection installed.

Newfie_dan, i like the idea of using the forklift. The gearing ratios would have to be changed to a large extent.
You can get batteries cheap that are second hand from UPS power backup supplies for mobile phone towers.
Id love to give the electric car idea a shot some day. Id look around for some small lighter car than the mx3.
How much do you reckon the mx3 would weigh with engine,trans, tank and other stuff out? 800kg? Still too heavy i think

[fowljesse]

The lightest MX-3 I've read about was about 2,000lbs. If you subtract the weight of the engine, and such, it would be about 1,600lbs. Then, if you replaced the windows, hood, and hatch with Lexan, and fiberglass, you'd be at about 1,400lbs. However, if you did all that to a Metro, or something, you could have a complete car that I could lift.
I lifted, and balanced a stripped MX-3 on my back a little while ago.

[Ryan]

Jesse, pics or GTFO. umcamara knows exactly how much a bare frame weighs, he got one scrapped. Unless it got placed gently on your head by a crane...

[Newfie_dan]

Gear ratios would not be a concern amonholland as you couple the motors directly to the input spline of the transmission, using a coupler or custom machined shaft to connect the 2, leaving the clutch and existing brake system in place. You can use a small vacuum pump for the brake booster to still be functional or go to a hydrobooster to eliminate that problem all together. Fully stripped down you could save quite a bit of weight meaning seats, panels (meanign replacing much of the panels with fiberglass ones including the hood or carbon fiber panels in time), engine, unnessacry wiring, gas tank, etc. But remember that you will be adding a few hundred pounds by the time the batteries and motor & wiring went in. You could save some weight by using aluminum to fab up brakets and what not for mounting things.

[fowljesse]

Sorry to jack the thread, but I got called out
http://www.mx-3.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.ph ... 2&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; It's the last post. Mooneggs got a picture as I just got started lifting, because he got a video of it. I did it twice. I'll see if he'll post the video. Cjthor, Vancouverwa, and Mooneggs saw me do it. I also broke a set of bolt cutters.
I regularly leg press 3 sets of 8 at about 810lbs not including the sled, and have done 4 reps at just over 1,000 (22 45lb. plates, + the sled). If you don't believe this, I'll get a video
Back on topic; I like the idea of a forklift motor! Could you use cellphone, or laptop batteries?

[Newfie_dan]

lithium ion batteries shunted together can get you the voltage needed. I don't know a ton on this topic other than the basic mechanical and electrical involved, I have been researching it for a few days now so I am just starting to get into it. Laptop batteries have been used before if I remember correctly the tesla roadster was run on those in its earlier stages. Again though cost would be higher with lithium ion batteries. But about 6-10 or so car batteries can be used to achieve the necessary voltages to run the motors. Dry cell batteries would make a good candidate for temperature resistance to cold but they are bloody heavy. Last dry cell I installed in a van weighed in at 120 pounds. Check out this site to get the basic idea of what's involved;
http://forkenswift.com/

[amnonholland]

http://forkenswift.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks Newfie_dan. That renewed my interest in electric cars.
Why was the clutch not needed? Was the motor shaft connected directly to the trans?
Only downside is max range on 2nd hand lead acid batts is like 60km. New ones, maybe 100km.
i drive 40km to work one way. Li ion bit expensive at moment.

Id probly go for a small light car like a metro or swift or charade for better range. electric motor would proabably pull harder than stock ICE
I imagine for the mx3, LI ion batts would be the go to get any decant range otherwise it would just be a matter of pilling on lead to move lead.
You could put in an large motor and save up for ultra caps for doing quick launches from the lights.
What would happen bout power steering? Can you remove hydraulic setup and install a manual rack?

[fowljesse]

Yes, you can use a 323 manual rack.

[Newfie_dan]

yeah fowljesse is right you can opt for a manual rack or just use a drive belt off the electric motor for a power steering system if you so choose. Lithium ion would probably be the best bet for weight reduction on the battery side of things, or a gel cell battery like the optima batteries which are a little lighter than a traditional lead acid battery. From what I have collected so far for info you could possibly make your own controller to save on the cost of that one just learn how to solder a circuit board and order the components yourself, I am still researching that part of it. A 72 volt system would give you decent torque for driving around town. My daily commute to work is only 15 kms so its not that bad for me. 40 plus each way and you would want something with a 100-200 km range. There is an electric car company here in canada thats based out of toronto called Zen motors. http://www.zenncars.com/ They make and sell cars that are actually cheaper than most cars on the road today and at 280 mpg (electricity cost vs gas cost) thats pretty damn cool. Here is the link I was looking at for the post on the homemade motor controller, http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.p ... -6404.html

[amnonholland]

Since my mx3 is converted to lpg theres no point making it electric now. (ultimately my dream in the future would be a electric mx3)
Im looking around for a small donor car for like 200$ that i can convert. it'll probably be a budget job. Ill do some more research but the most i complicated part would be the controller.
Making a controller may be a possibility, i can solder and have rough electrical knowledge.
72 Volt would be the way to go, but that would require 6 good(or same performance) lead acids in series.
anything less than 48 Volts would require mammoth cabling.
What would be the rpm range typical of such motors 0-2000RPM?

My first stage would be finding a light car and stripping out as much weight as possible!

[Newfie_dan]

yeah you would be best off looking for a lighter car for maximum speed/distance. I would opt for a ford festiva, suzuki swift, etc some small very light car. A geo metro would work as well as would many VW cars like a rabbit. I would think that you would be better off looking for a hatch back as it gives you ample trunk space for mounting batteries and electronics. A smart car would probably be the smallest/lightest car I have heard tell of ppl puting a hayabusa engine in those. As far as rpm range that would depend on the type of motor and bearings. 5,500 rpm is easily acheivable with an electric motor, they are not limited to valve floating above certain rpms like ice engines.

[amnonholland]

Hi folks
Im really keen to make the electric car thing happen
Theres an mx3 for sale below. im thinking about using the mx3 as the donor car for the electric conversion.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Eunos-30X-Mazda- ... 4a9e4dead2

Good thing is that the mx3 has a low drag coeff. due to shape, etc
Bad thing is mx3 is reasonably heavy. (for an EV candidate)

What are your comments?
Should i get it?