Tapping in the Engine....AGAIN!!!

[swman01]

Id like to start by saying hello, im a new member on the site, and love help i see others getting.
i just got my 1993 MX-3 1.6L and well, when i had received it there was some tapping in the engine. i found out that it was the Hydrolic Valve Lifter and i had replaced it. some family members of mine(uncles) had suggested that on the next oil change i do i should put some Marvel Mystery Oil in it to clean out the Engine, but since, the tapping is begining to return. Not to quickly but faintly. Here is my question. What can i do to fix the situation, and or whats the most cost friendly way to go about it?

~ swman01

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93' Mx-3 1.6L

[Ryan]

The fix is to turn up the music. Every Mazda engine that uses Hydraulic Lash Adjusters taps. Its just how they go. You can replalce all 16 for lots of money, or clean them. There is a link somewhere on the site, search for "Cleaning HLA's" Otherwise... run slightly thinner oil (5W30) and please stay away from oil additives, or any additives.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Ryan, I'm gonna have to disagree with you. I had a '92 1.6 L for little less than 3 years, got rid of the tapping from the get go, and never heard it again until I sold the car.

Swman01: welcome to the forum.
If you replaced your HLAs for new ones, you need to first run the cheapest oil you can buy, with no additives, to give the new lifters a chance to get broken in. They WILL tap. Don't worry about it.
Then, on the next oil change, you can use a good oil and an additive, which should get rid of the tap altogether.

Now, a little light on oils and additives.

First the oil. 5W 30 oil is NOT thinner than 10W30. The "W" in the number stands for "Winter", and gives you the flow characteristics of the oil in cold weather. Both oils are SAE 30 when hot, so they're exactly the same oil. The difference is that 10W30 will flow (when cold, in cold weather) like a SAE 10 would flow at that temperature, while a 5W30 would flow like a SAE 5.
So, once the engine is at normal operating temperature, both oils will work exactly the same, but if you live in Iceland, you should use 5W30, while if you live (like me) in Miami, you can use whatever you like, as long as it is a "30".

Now, the additives. There are basically 2 kinds of additives in the market. The cheap ones (Marvel Mystery Oil, Restore, Lucas, etc) work by increasing the oil's viscosity and detergency. You do NOT want them in your HLA equipped engine.
The good (expensive) ones (Z-Max, ProLong, Slick 50) act by increasing the oil's lubricity and film strength, increasing compression on worn out engines, and increasing detergency. You CAN'T GO WRONG with any of them.

Like I said, I bought my '92 with a fairly severe tapping problem. At the time, I was suggested to use ProLong, so I decided to use it and synthetic oil (Castrol Syntec in my case), and not only the tapping disappeared immediately, but the engine ran much smoother, so I never looked back.

So, to finish. I'd recommend you to get some Engine Flush (follow the directions on the bottle) and then change your oil for a cheap one for the first 3000 miles, and, as Ryan said, turn up the radio.
Then, use a good synthetic oil (10W30 or 5W30, according to the temperature where you live), and a good additive. Personally, I recommend ProLong, but even when I didn't use them, I know that Z-Max and Slick 50 are good stuff. Then you can turn the radio off, and listen to the REAL music...

In case you decide to use ProLong, there are 2 different sizes. One, the "Engine Treatment" is the one you have to use the first time. The other one, the "Booster" is the one you will use on each oil change afterwards.

[Mnemonic]

gonna have to agree with ryan on this one

I've had 4 k series engines 1klze 1kfze and 2 k8s... And on all of them the infamous Tapping/clicking noise was present. Its a problem common with all HLAs. If it gets really loud, I recommend checking your oil, as I've noticed a difference in the volume of the tapping when the engine is low on oil.

I've installed new, used, replaced, and cleaned HLA's and have always had that ticking sound, you might get rid of it for awhile but it will come back and is not an issue you really need to worry about all that much, its a common noise that's just part of the Mazda engine history.

It really helps for when people are looking at your engine and they think something is wrong with it and challenge you at the track

[wytbishop]

3000km on my ZE and it doesn't tick. I am running Castrol Syntec 10W30 for summer and will go to 5W30 for winter. After install I ran the first hour or so with 15W40HD dinosaur oil for the high detergent value to perform a mild engine flush and then first oil change went to the synthetic and Inodoro's right, you will notice it runs smoother. Definitely worth the cost of synthetic oil.

If an HLA is actually seized you can save them with flushing. I've heard of guys doing more than one flush and the second or third flush the ticking stops.

[swman01]

Thanks you everyone for your help, ill definitely use a different kind of oil, and try the suggestions that was left. Payday next friday so ill have to wait till then, so im hoping that it should be okay till then.


swman01
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93' MX-3 1.6L

[Ryan]

5W 30 IS thinner than 10W30. I, as a matter of fact, live nearly on the same latitude as Iceland, and sice I have a continental climate we get WAY colder.

Since the W stands for winter (which is silly and ambiguous, because of course the Miama winter is +20C and my winter is -40C)

So in colder temperatures, the oil has to lubricate better. Since frozen oil rocks don't lubricate well, an oil with an higher viscosity at a lower ambient temperature will do much better... It may be no different at running temp, but during the warmup period, its getting more lubrication than a higher W value oil.



Also, the tick can easily be unique to the car. No oil change first 20k of its life? All your oil passages are blocked solid, reducing the pressure to the HLA's, so they don't fill entirely. They'll also be clogged to hell, and the check valve will be so bunged up it won't hold pressure and tick.

If it doesn't tick, it is better taken care of... but if it does, unless you're putting the motor in a dunk tank, you can only make is slightly better with additives. Also, change the oil or sure 200km after you add the additive, if not sooner. I don't trust that crap, all oils have it engineered into them, you don't need extra. Seafoam must be my favourite, though. Clean HLA's, although the Mazda shop Manual says don't... I'd do it anyway. Just remember that they're unique to their bores. (Its also a valve thing, they are all i nspec with eachother so valves open the right ammount, your mileage and power are on the line, as well as the evenness of your head)

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Mnemonic: when I read your post earlier today, I decided to wait until after work to reply to it, mostly because I have never driven a KL engine, and I didn't want to talk from a purely theoretical stance.
Notice though, that the op stated he has a B6, so even if you were right about the KL, that has no bearing in the discussion at hand. The experience I posted before was with a B6 SOHC, exactly the engine the op has.
That said, today at work I asked 4 mechanics if they ever had a valve tapping problem on a 626 or MX6, and the answer was, in all cases, that all Mazda V6 engines are very smooth running, and that the only times they had valve tapping on them was because the owners were running 20W50 oil, or eventually no oil at all.
Now, from a purely theoretical point of view, I can tell you without a doubt that if your engine is tapping there IS something wrong with it.
Let me explain.
The whole purpose for the use of HLAs is precisely to eliminate (as much as possible) valve tapping.
Valve tapping is a consequence of valve lash, which is necessary with solid lifters to account for component expansion during engine warm up. That lash is also time during the camshaft revolution in which the valve could be opening, but it's still closed because the rocker arm, or the camshaft love, hasn't reached the lifter yet. So, simply putting it, lash is power that's not being generated.
The whole purpose for the use of HLAs is precisely to keep the valves open for as long as possible, by eliminating that lash. And, since valve tapping is caused by the cam lobe/rocker arm hitting the lifter, eliminating the lash means eliminating the tapping.
That means designing HLAs that produce valve tapping is designing an engine with all the disadvantages of HLAs, and all the disadvantages of solid lifters. Clearly defeats the purpose.

Ryan: it's not my intention to start a debate. The differences between oil grades are not subject to interpretation. If you really are interested in learning the truth about them, you just need to do a search on the subject.
Yes, the "W" stands for winter, and it's NOT silly or ambiguous. The W doesn't define the parameters that determine the oil's viscosity at different temperatures. The W is just a GRAPHIC way to tell the common person what the numbers mean, and, as that, it works perfectly well for those interested in understanding it.
5W30 and 10W30 oils are not just the same viscosity. They're THE SAME OIL. The only difference is the use of different quantities of a polymer, known as a "viscosity index improver", which acts by stabilizing (partially) the viscosity changes of the oil with temperature changes. 5W30 oil is NOT less viscous than 10W30. It's just MORE STABLE.
Also, you're completely free to not trust oil additives, or any other thing you choose not to trust. But that doesn't mean you're right. Like I said, these are things that are not open to debate. Oil additives not only have to pass numerous tests before being released, but they have stood countless hours at the racetrack, and on the streets, and their qualities are very well known for anybody who has ever used them.

Also, you're right: if you run your car for 20000 miles without changing your oil, you're bound to have problems. While we're at it, if we're gonna keep on running stupid scenarios, if you run your engine on nitroglycerin instead of gas it probably won't last long either.
Have you seen many people running their engines on nitroglycerin?

[Ryan]

No, but it should probably be done and then a video posted on Youtube.

and I've heard of dumber things... like a guy came into Mazda with his brand new 3, and didn't know why it was smoking. He had done his own oil change, and put in something like 13 litres of oil. He filled it to the cap.

BTW, I work at Mazda and am good friends with the head mechanic, 20 years working for Mazda. He's seen the MX3 and B series motors through all of their stages, an as far as he knows, the tap is just natural.

AFAIK, most of them tap, and none are really hurt by it. Have you ever pulled a lifter apart? it literally is just a check valve on a cylinder. if the check valve isn't functioning properly, the HLA completely compresses, and if you do it quick enough, it makes a tick noise, because its metal on metal. Maybe we're using the wrong term "valve tap" but its still a tap in the valvetrain...

Maybe oil additives are legit. I simply think that there is much more pressure on the oil itself (political, economic, financial potential) because EVERYONE runs oil and needs to have a trusted brand, and not everyone runs additives. The oil is engineered to not need the additives, would you agree? In normal, well maintained engine life, it shouldn't need any additives.

So, in hindsight of this conversation, I'd give the additives a whirl. No harm can be done. I just wouldn't make a habit of it either.

Now, Coolant additives like stop-leak...

[chrome730]

stop leak ended three of my cars

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Ryan: I've heard of dumber things too. Not only that: I experience dumber things almost daily at work.
A few days ago a customer brought a brake rotor that was showing the cooling fins trough one if its faces. He wanted to know if that could be the cause of the noise he was having...
But you have to agree that, while they exist, they're (luckily) not the norm.
As per the HLAs, I'd say if they don't open for any reason, check valve or not, that's clearly an engine malfunction, not a design flaw.

I agree oil additives are not needed. But they're useful. I can guarantee you, if you ever put a good additive in your engine (not the cheap $10 stuff. A GOOD one.) you will never go back to using straight oil.

Now, Coolant additives like stop-leak...

That'd be an egg white for me... I'm old school.

[93vtecklr]

It's funny you should mention that, because after I put stop leak into my cooling system, It stopped leaking. But man did that hose burst! I use oil additives. In my experience with this engine it keeps it running nice and quiet. I use Z max I think. I also do a flush every time I change it. Pour the bottle in, idle for 5-10 minutes, change the oil. Fresh oil, additive, nice and smooth.

[SuperK]

They redesigned the hla's in later years I am told.
I will have 16 new hla's for sale after this friday if you would like

[SuperK]

http://www.mx5oc.co.uk/forum/forums/sto ... %20FAQ.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

[Tunes67]

When I rebuilt the head on my B6 I replaced all the HLA's to eliminate the tapping that occurs from them.. guess what? 1 of the new HLA's taps too.. here is why.. Its NOT the HLA thats the problem. Its the bore the HLA rides in. They dont get even oil flow and over time and when folks dont change their oil at the specified intervals.. the bore wears down.. not much.. but just enough.. if the HLA is weak.. the oil drains out and takes forever to pump back up. If the HLA is good.. it will take a lot longer for the oil to drain out... heh.. I let my RS sit for 6 weeks.. that was enough.. ticked for 2 hours before all the HLA's finally pumped back up.

Now.. the above info is NOT a end all thing. All points brought up in this thread have some validity to them. But this is one that I didnt see mentioned. Unfortunately.. its also something that cant be repaired shy of replacing the head itself. Oil additives that thicken the oil will usually take longer to drain out of the HLA.. but will also take longer to pump into the HLA. 50/50. Thinner oil allows the HLA to pump up faster.. but will also drain out faster if the HLA is weak. Damned if you do and damned if you dont

Tunes67