Turbo or SuperChargers (The last debate thread, V6 ONLY)

[Juans_93_MX3]

(Sticky if necessary)
AT 8PSI... not 20PSI, which option is the better option?

Topics to debate about:
1.) What custom setup is cheaper? I keep getting different prices and opinions on this. Some guys at ProbeTalk say a S/C setup is cheaper, yet, last time I asked on here, people said it would cost more.
Wouldnt a S/C setup be cheaper due to the fact that you dont have to buy a wastegate, BOV and some of the other small stuff?
But by how much cheaper?

2.) What setup is the easiest to install on a MX3?

3.) Last question, cons and pros of a turbo and supercharger setup?

4.) Is it a pain in the butt to install a driveshaft on our cars for the S/C? How much would a Driveshaft cost and how hard are they to find?

EDIT: I am leaning towards the M65 S/C. I hear they are great for 8PSI (just like many Roots Superchargers) and even better then a T/C setup at 8PSI.
DEBATE, which option would really be better
T3s, T4s, M65s, M90s, ect

[MechaManZero]

turbo is cheaper and more fun cause you can turn up or down the boost. Superchargers kindof nee a pully swap and i think it is geh that you need to use power to make power.

[mitmaks]

supercharger is the way to go

[JWMotorsports]

It depends on your HP goal, budget, and planed usage of the car.

Turbos are more efficient and allow better traction out of the hole especially when you have a limited budget.

Superchargers offer a LOT more low end torque with minimum lag...some SCs do have lag like characteristics...mainly the centerfudgile ones.

For all out badness and no budget...Whipple Superchargers win hands down but it takes a LOT of money for suspension and chassis work to track up the insane instant power (kind of like n2o but no refills needed).

For a budget person the only fesable SC setup would be to obtain a used Eaton M62 or M90 and that would make a SICK street car if you could track it up. Both SCs can run over 20psi of pressure but you need to intercool them via custom parts.

Turbo setups are the cheapest way to go about it. You can EASILY turbo the B6 & BPT cars to over 300WHP (including getting a standalone) for what basic Supercharger kits sell for. If your junkyard and used parts swavy you could turbo a car for possibly under $2000 and get 300+WHP.

[Juans_93_MX3]

A t3 that kicks in a 3k RPMs sound intresting

Quick question though
Do T3s choke at the highend?
In other words, do S/Cs out perform a T3 at the high end?
I take it that since a S/C kicks in instantely and a T3 kicks in at 3k rpms, the low-end power differences isnt really much of a big difference?

[xmaster19]

Centrifugal S/C are belt driven T/C... There is too many variables on this topic, do what you like.

Whine or Pshiiit?

[Juans_93_MX3]

A t3 that kicks in a 3k RPMs sound intresting
Can a T3 run up to 20PSI or would that require a bigger turbo?
What performs best at the top-end, a M64/M90 or a T3?

I still cant see a T/C being cheaper then a S/C setup
The way I see it though, they may be around the same price, except a turbo gives you more bang for the buck

Back to the topics to debate about:
1.) What custom setup is cheaper?

2.) However, are the power gains and 1/4mile times really that much of a big difference?

3.) What setup is the easiest to install on a MX3?

4.) Last question, cons and pros of a turbo and supercharger setup?

[JWMotorsports]

A SC would walk all over a turbo down low in the rpm band with the exception of the REALLY large centerfudgil SCs. The "Roots" (aka twin screw) SCs are the way to go and I recommend the Whipple brand over all that I've seen. They have one that makes upto 30psi of pressure and can flow over 2700cfm of air spinning at 16,000rpm. Thats enough air to support over 2000HP They don't have lag to them either but the power out put corrisponds linerly to the engine rpm.

http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/pro ... rodID=1162

Any turbo can run out of air up high in the rpm band. It depends on your boost pressure range your using and the HP goal your shooting for. The boost pressure you need depends on a lot of things, such as port size, compression ratio, runner diameter & length, power band range you desire. If your wanting to make BIG HP numbers on an engine like the B6's with out massive porting you'll have to run really high boost pressures to get the air flow you need with out going to a turbo so big you have to spin the motor 10k rpm to get a usable powerband. The higher you rev the motor the more pressure you will need because you have less time to fill the cyl. with "x" volume of air required to generate your HP target. Everyone made fun of my 4' long runners on my turbo manifold but my turbo makes boost as low as 2500rpm's. I can make 20psi in 1st gear and over 30psi by 5300rpm in second gear on a 7.9:1 compression 1.6l b6t yeilding over 400WHP. I've seen DSM 2.0L 4G63s with 8.5:1 compression have a hard time doing that. Your setup needs to be designed as a whole for maximum efficency base off what you'll use the car for. If you just "piece" a car together based of what you hear on the street you'll be in for a world of hurt if you try to race against someone who has done their homework and designed the car as a system and not just "big" parts...I said big parts because that is the most common mistake when people are selecting cam shafts and turbos. Bigger is not always better

[Juans_93_MX3]

Dont know much about Forced Induction other than how a turbo or S/C work.
Other than that, I dont know crap.
Dont even know the term efficient

How about I ask this
Why do S/Cs setups cost more?
Is the turbo lag on a T3 really that noticeable? I hear they kick in at 3k RPMs, whats so bad about that? Isnt that still under the peak Torque (4k-4.5k RPMs)
When people say, a T3 can kick in at 3K RPMs, what do they really mean?
Do they mean that once the car is at 3k RPMs, you instantly get a extra 90-110hp?

[fieromx3]

also look at this if ur worried about turbo lag just think of this from first gear how long does it actually take u to get to say like 4000rpm?? pretty much almost instantly and if ur cruising and u wanna spool the turbo just downshift and ull be in ur cars powerband plus the turbos ''spool band'' lol. turbo lag isnt really a big deal as it might sound

[Steeb]

rotrex is the way of the future. in a few years, it will become affordable.... hopefully.

[ryanlindenberg]

also look at this if ur worried about turbo lag just think of this from first gear how long does it actually take u to get to say like 4000rpm?? pretty much almost instantly and if ur cruising and u wanna spool the turbo just downshift and ull be in ur cars powerband plus the turbos ''spool band'' lol. turbo lag isnt really a big deal as it might sound

i agree, if you are trying to speed up fast, why would you be at 1000-3000 rpm anyway?

[JWMotorsports]

Lag: The time it takes from when you slap the gas pedal on the floor until you see boost

1st gear with a BIG turbo is slow as nutz until you hit the boost pressure ratio range the turbo's compressor wheel is sized for. For instance...my car won't break 20psi until I bounce it off the rev limiter or use antilag. The performance that lag hurts the most is when you have tall gears that are spread apart and you get caught on the low to middle end of the gear when you need boost quick. Even if you down shift your still in the laggy spool up rpm range. For most people it isn't that big of an issue because they are running a small turbo or a t3/t4 size range with a small A/R exhaust housing (.48 or .63 A/R turbine housing). That is where SCs kick the crap out of turbos....IF you have the money to get the suspension and chassis to hook it. Lag can be used as a FWD cars friend in drag racing especially. The lag will allow you to launch the car out of the hole harder with out blowing the tires off (going up in smoke). This is what SCs and really small turbos are horrible about. You might as well be spraying nitrous.

It all goes back to....design the car around what you'll use it for. Thats the bottom line. There is no "Correct" answer as to weather the SC or the turbo is ultimately better than the other unless you have a purpose to build the car for. Are you using the car for Drag racing, Autox-ing, Drifting? That is all you'll need to know. If your Autox-ing you'll need to look at the tracks your running. Do the have short straight aways or long straight aways? Tight turns or lazy turns? Each of those answers will change what power adder will work best for your application. Once you determing what your building the car for you need to look at the car itself. What size engine, rpm range your looking to build it for (goes back to the first questions...short tracks with tight corners need short close gears and either a SC or a small turbo to build a fat power band as low in the RPM range as possible) etc...etc...etc...

[MechaManZero]

And thats why I say 2 step lmao.

BTW I don't mean a type of dance.

JK I know you guys know what it is and if you don't and you're in the forced induction forums... well... god bless your soul

[Juans_93_MX3]

So I understand a M64 and M90 S/C are Roots type superchargers
http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread.php?t=1701205601
I learned alot form that thread.

Since I would only plan on running 6-8PSI boost on a KLZE, I figure a M65 should do the job
However, on our MX3s, I understand we need sometype of driveshaft like what Jeff Abram had on his black GSR MX3. Because their isnt enough room inside the engine bay, we need that drive shaft or whatever
How hard would it be to setup this "driveshaft" or find one that can be properly used and at how much of a cost?